Herbie Herbert: One Man's Journey

[*Laura]

Can't say I was surprised by HH's answers,but I'm glad that at least he gave up the harsh insults.
Also,it doesn't surprise me that he's endorsing the new line-up.He sure got the idea behind Journey's choice.

The only thing I didn't agree with at all was the bit about SP not making eye contact with the audience.Saying that about a front man who completely controlled the audience is ridiculous.
Other than that it was a captivating read,as it always is when Herbie opens his mouth.


Congrats on the interview,Drew,and thanks for posting it.Good questions there.

[yulog]

Hmmm. Jeff wasn't just "filling in". He was announced as the new singer. It seems as though Journey thought he sounded right for the band. The fans in So Cal thought he sounded right.

But then, we've been down this road before...

If he really sounded right for the band it would seem logical that the band wouldn't had let him go the way they did(i think they would have found a way to make it work)

Maybe some fans in so cal thought he sounded right, others didn't

[Indyjoe]

Hmmm. Jeff wasn't just "filling in". He was announced as the new singer. It seems as though Journey thought he sounded right for the band. The fans in So Cal thought he sounded right.

But then, we've been down this road before...

but remember ,, Soto even commented that his performance at the show where HH attended wasnt up to snuff.. HH certainly didnt hear his England performance ...

I don't know about that show. My post was more toward the discussion about Jeff in the thread, rather than to HH's comments.

oh... well anyway.. the ole man JSS is still my pick as well..

Isn't it really late in your part of the country? Do you guys get earthquakes?

Great interview Andrew! It made the earth shake here in Southern California! (for real)

[larryfromnextdoor]

[

Isn't it really late in your part of the country? Do you guys get earthquakes?

yea its late..

we dont have earthquakes.. we have dirt storms and tornados...

[Indyjoe]

Hmmm. Jeff wasn't just "filling in". He was announced as the new singer. It seems as though Journey thought he sounded right for the band. The fans in So Cal thought he sounded right.

But then, we've been down this road before...

If he really sounded right for the band it would seem logical that the band wouldn't had let him go the way they did(i think they would have found a way to make it work)

Maybe some fans in so cal thought he sounded right, others didn't

It would seem logical not to hire him in the first place. I don't understand any of it. Doesn't matter. I was just saying that if they hired him, it would suggest they thought at least at some point he sounded right for the band.

[yulog]

Hmmm. Jeff wasn't just "filling in". He was announced as the new singer. It seems as though Journey thought he sounded right for the band. The fans in So Cal thought he sounded right.

But then, we've been down this road before...

If he really sounded right for the band it would seem logical that the band wouldn't had let him go the way they did(i think they would have found a way to make it work)

Maybe some fans in so cal thought he sounded right, others didn't

It would seem logical not to hire him in the first place.

That might be the case if there wasn't a lot of money at stake to be lost by Journey, money had a big part in the decision making process.

[tammy]

Oy, what a long read. Kinda hard to follow his train of thought. It wasn't as bad as I was imagining. Nothing new actually that I didn't already hear or read before. Everything remains the same...I still love SP!

Nothing seems as disasterous as HH thinks...everybody makes certain choices in certain situations. Besides, that was then...SP has said it himself that if he could he would've done things differently. HH says it clearly that this touring, this catalog is brutal on voices - it's brain damage. who knows what will happen to AP's voice.

It was nice to hear about Neal's "voice" in his guitar. How singers were amazed to hear every nuance as if they sung it. We all know this, but it is cool to read the instances.

A lot of music biz talk which is kinda interesting...makes my head ache. I'm not on that end or in music, just a fan, so I don't really get the whole "they coulda made bookoo bucks doing this or that"...to me a song will find & speak to a soul & something magical happens...so what if TBF or ROR wasn't making money. I love both of them.

I disagree with SP not making eye contact...he sure as hell looks like it to me from all the youtubes I have watched. Besides, I got great eye contact with him at the WOF.

Thanks for getting this interview, Andrew!

[yulog]

Hmmm. Jeff wasn't just "filling in". He was announced as the new singer. It seems as though Journey thought he sounded right for the band. The fans in So Cal thought he sounded right.

But then, we've been down this road before...

If he really sounded right for the band it would seem logical that the band wouldn't had let him go the way they did(i think they would have found a way to make it work)

Maybe some fans in so cal thought he sounded right, others didn't

It would seem logical not to hire him in the first place. I don't understand any of it. Doesn't matter. I was just saying that if they hired him, it would suggest they thought at least at some point he sounded right for the band.

I guess they felt the same way about Fleischman?

[Indyjoe]

Hmmm. Jeff wasn't just "filling in". He was announced as the new singer. It seems as though Journey thought he sounded right for the band. The fans in So Cal thought he sounded right.

But then, we've been down this road before...

If he really sounded right for the band it would seem logical that the band wouldn't had let him go the way they did(i think they would have found a way to make it work)

Maybe some fans in so cal thought he sounded right, others didn't

It would seem logical not to hire him in the first place. I don't understand any of it. Doesn't matter. I was just saying that if they hired him, it would suggest they thought at least at some point he sounded right for the band.

I guess they felt the same way about Fleischman?

I would guess if they hired him they liked the way he sounded at some point. They change their mind - apparently.

What's your take? Edit - sorry for confusion. I was responding to your question about Fleischman (not asking about JSS).

[yulog]

If i were to state what i really believe, it would cause a tremendous uproar here at MR which would cause Andrew a lot of grief, so for his sanity i should probably just keep my thoughts to myself

At some point they decided that it wasn't in the best interest for the band to continue with JSS at lead vocals(i believe there were probably several issues that led them to this realization)

[Voyager]

My take on it is this; Herbie is/was a businessman. He was all about doing whatever would reap the biggest financial rewards for "the company" that was Journey.
When they were struggling, his insistence on constant touring, etc. may have been necessary to keep the momentum going. However, once they achieved success (both financial and popularity wise), Perry didn't want to keep the pedal to the floor 24/7 as Herbie had planned.

I believe you just hit the nail on the head. Steve Perry wanted quality while Herbie Herbert was driving the band like cattle for quantity. I believe that is why these two are such enemies. Perry was the sensitive, creative type, and Herbie was the marketing man.

I'm not saying Perry was right and Herbert was wrong at all. I think they both made mistakes along the way. Too bad for Journey.

[Red13JoePa]

The part where he said Perry never looking into the audience, yes he did. That's crap, I sat right in front of him twice.

I'm thinking he means for the most part.
I noticed the same thing about Pineda after I watched the who1e Chile show.
A ton of looking up, or rolling his eyes up into his head/shutting his eyes but minimal real audience eye contact.

[Voyager]

Hey Andrew, did Herbie say if he thought any of the songs on the upcoming new (originals) album had hit potential?

[Jenna]

Well Done Andrew-------Thank you-

[SusieP]

Two things scream out at me from all of that interview,

1) I now know why JSS was 'let go' and,
2) I think Herbie wants Kevin Chalfant to be Journey's singer.

Enjoyed reading it Andrew, thankyou.

[MrsPerry]

Was it really necissary to run down TBF like that? Anyway, the only thing that really ticked me off...was the eye contact comment. I was AMAZED by the ROR cover that andrew posted, that would have been so much cooler. Good Interview tho.

[NealIsGod]

You go from there to Neal is doing the cocaine, drinking, fuckin' the chicks, doin' all the fuckin' things that Steve couldn't do as a lead singer. And then going out on stage totally hammered and playing perfectly. And then he'd go on a binge for a week, come into the studio hammered, and do all of his guitar parts, in that condition, on the whole album in the next two days and that's it. This guy, you know you take his album like Voices and I don't think Neal spent two whole hours on any track on that record and every single effect, everything you hear comes out that way on his guitar. The engineer has two stereo channels totally flat no EQ and all the effects, everything you here Neal does, on the fly, real time. The dude plays equipment every bit as good as he plays guitar. He's a frickin' genius with it and he just moves right through the whole thing and he'll play a couple bars, get it in his head, 'I got it, let's roll.' And he just rolls and sings the song. I'm telling you nobody can do that.
My dear, departed friend Don Pearson who owned Ultrasound, probably the best sound company in the world, and they invested so much money in this ultimate Meyer sound system, and was on tour with the Grateful Dead for years and years and years until of course Gerry died. And um, then he put that system out with other artists one of which was Andrea Bocelli. And on Neal's record Voice there was two Andrea Bocelli tracks and in front of 300,000 people in Hyde Park in London on that sound system he played those two tracks and Andrea Bocelli was back stage, and this was also a Nocturne tour, and he said 'Who in the fuck is that? He's doing my vocal and every nuance of my vocal.' How can someone do that, you know? Even the singers hear it. You know Bryan Adams toured with us on the whole '83 tour. He heard 'Everything I Do I Do For You' off of that record and said, 'Jesus, that's just fuckin' unbelievable.' Even the singers themselves, they just don't expect somebody to be able to play like that.


What a fuckin' badass Neal is. My screenname is never changing.

[WIX]

no real big surprises for me, but always an interesting read and take on things.

Really it is normal actually, if they were still together with perry and herbie there would still be drama that goes with a band.

they broke apart, feelings were hurt so there is drama from that.

I really cannot think of a situation where there wouldn't be drama.

unless you were there to see it first hand you really can't say how someone should or shouldn't feel.

in the end, the fans were left with an emptiness inside that will never go away.

it is almost like eating cheese cake every friday. Then one day somebody says "no more cheesecake bitch!"

[marco17]

The part where he said Perry never looking into the audience, yes he did. That's crap, I sat right in front of him twice.

I'm thinking he means for the most part.
I noticed the same thing about Pineda after I watched the who1e Chi1e show.
I ton of 1ooking up, or ro11ing his eyes up into his head/shutting his eyes but minima1 rea1 audience eye contact.

A very widely used practice for people who public speak a lot or perform, especially for those who may not be as comfortable doing it, is to look people's foreheads, and not make direct eye contact. It gives the impression that they are making eye contact with them, when in reality they are not. "Might" help answer this question, or at least just offer a thought. And, I doubt HH meant he never made eye contact with anyone, but it was probably limited.

[Eric]

the reason i say it might've been a good thing to take a break is because bands like foreigner and styx who were churning out top ten singles and albums on the same rate as journey had horrible chart success by the time the 90's rolled around.foreigner had a number one smash with i want to know what love is and the album was a top five hit also around the same time raised on radio was released in '86.by the time '91 rolled around foreigner released another album which didn't even crack the top 100 albums.styx also released an album that hit like number 70 in 1990.bands like these that used to hit top five every release kept churning out albums which weren't selling because times had changed.by the time '96 rolled around journey had another top ten album with trial by fire and picked up where they left off because they wisely took a break.so in retrospect it was a wise thing i think because its quality not quantity that counts.

The only difference is that Styx had a top 10 (forget how high) hit with Show Me The Way in '91. I THINK Edge Of The Century went higher than 70 on the charts.

I think we need to keep in mind that Journey is Journey and not Styx, Foreigner and REO. They are forever linked to these bands because they shared an era and thats how they are seen looking back...but Journey was in a completely different league and COULD have been a legend forever. I just don't think we're comparing Apples to Apples when we talk about how one of those bands did and projecting that out for Journey.

[Red13JoePa]

[i]You go from there to Neal is doing the cocaine, drinking, fuckin' the chicks, doin' all the fuckin' things that Steve couldn't do as a lead singer. And then going out on stage totally hammered and playing perfectly. And then he'd go on a binge for a week, come into the studio hammered, and do all of his guitar parts, in that condition, on the whole album in the next two days and that's it. This guy, you know you take his album like Voices and I don't think Neal spent two whole hours on any track on that record and every single effect, everything you hear comes out that way on his guitar. The engineer has two stereo channels totally flat no EQ and all the effects, everything you here Neal does, on the fly, real time. The dude plays equipment every bit as good as he plays guitar. He's a frickin' genius with it and he just moves right through the whole thing and he'll play a couple bars, get it in his head, 'I got it, let's roll.' And he just rolls and sings the song. I'm telling you nobody can do that.
What a fuckin' badass Neal is. My screenname is never changing.

Neal is a warrior, pure and simple.

[Moon Beam]

You people need to hush a your fingers, I am trying to read!


Niggy never changing your siggy name, not once have I thought you would.

[Art Vandelay]

Kudos, Andrew. Nice interview.

Personally, I still don't see how one's opinion on another holds up after admitting to not having contact with them for so many years. To quote Neal from Behind the Music...."people change."

Nonetheless, great stuff.

[Eric]

the reason i say it might've been a good thing to take a break is because bands like foreigner and styx who were churning out top ten singles and albums on the same rate as journey had horrible chart success by the time the 90's rolled around.foreigner had a number one smash with i want to know what love is and the album was a top five hit also around the same time raised on radio was released in '86.by the time '91 rolled around foreigner released another album which didn't even crack the top 100 albums.styx also released an album that hit like number 70 in 1990.bands like these that used to hit top five every release kept churning out albums which weren't selling because times had changed.by the time '96 rolled around journey had another top ten album with trial by fire and picked up where they left off because they wisely took a break.so in retrospect it was a wise thing i think because its quality not quantity that counts.

The only difference is that Styx had a top 10 (forget how high) hit with Show Me The Way in '91. I THINK Edge Of The Century went higher than 70 on the charts.

I think we need to keep in mind that Journey is Journey and not Styx, Foreigner and REO. They are forever linked to these bands because they shared an era and thats how they are seen looking back...but Journey was in a completely different league and COULD have been a legend forever. I just don't think we're comparing Apples to Apples when we talk about how one of those bands did and projecting that out for Journey.

[Marzdog]

True, but, one's perception is their reality, no matter the place or time.

Personally, I still don't see how one's opinion on another holds up after admitting to not having contact with them for so many years. To quote Neal from Behind the Music...."people change."

[UncleKG]

Great interview, Andrew. Coincidentally, I just reread "Castles Burning" two days ago and was trying to find fresh info/interviews from Herbie. You really delivered!

I think the guy's a friggin' innovative genius (Herbie). He really revolutionized the concert industry, and if you look up Nocturne Productions, they handle the biggest tours going now. Bon Jovi, Paul McCartney, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Madonna, Tim McGraw and Faith Hill (which I got free tickets to and assumed I would hate. The production, videos on the stage flooring, video production on see-through scrims, etc., was AMAZING!). I would get on hands and knees and beg the guy to be my manager, because you know he knows the industry inside and out and will go balls to the wall to make you as successful as humanly possible.

Here are my thoughts:

1. I think Herbie (understandably) resented Perry trying to wrestle control away from Herbie. If I'm Herbie, my attitude is, "Look, MF'er, I handpicked this band, I hired YOU, now don't try to hold me hostage by stamping your foot and saying, 'I want this or I want that.'" I do think Perry did demand some changes just to assert his will (demanding "Freedom" be changed to "Raised on Radio," changing up the artwork, etc.). Given that Herbie's model had worked EXTREMELY well to that point, why not stick to the plan? I think, at some point, Herbie dismissed Perry (not his abilities, but his attitude) as a difficult prima donna, which is probably not far from the truth (everyone's heard of "Lead Singer's Disease"), and that is reflected in a lot of his comments about Perry.

I do think he's being honest about Perry not being able to sing like he used to. He might not like the guy, but he's always given him props for his talent, and like he said, if you can find a tape of the Bill Graham tribute concert, the proof of the lower key is on there. That's an assertion that can be checked out (not easily, necessarily, but it can be verified). I'm a huge Steve Perry fan, but I can certainly understand if he can't hit the notes he could 22 years ago. Not many people can. Don't ask Robert Plant to sing "Black Dog" like he did back in the day. It ain't gonna' happen.

2. I LOVED Jeff Scott Soto in Journey. I saw them at the House of Blues in Orlando last January and thought he was amazing. But, I understand where Herbie's coming from, and if he saw Jeff on an off night, I can see where he would say that it was a bad decision. To his point, right now Journey's best bet is to keep doing the songs in the original keys to please the live audiences, and JSS' voice is NOT as high as Perry's (or Pineda's). It was a different sound....a great sound, to my ears....but different.

3. Someone posted that they didn't understand why he was down on Perry for pushing the guys to liquidate assets (like Nocturne), and then he said Nocturne isn't making them rich. I think he's referring more to the fact that Nocturne has likely generated millions in income for both Herbie and Neal in the last 24 years (he said the other guys sold their shares in 1984), not to mention the real estate holdings Herbie referenced in the "Castles Burning" interview (one building in San Fran that he bought for $6 mil is now worth $75). It was "penny-wise, pound-foolish" thinking, in his opinion, and I can't say I disagree.

4. I also don't agree with someone's post that "Perry was probably more about quality and Herbie wanted quantity." I don't think Herbie would have allowed anything substandard to be released, but I do think he felt like Journey could have gone even higher (which is where the "they snatched defeat from the jaws of victory" line probably came from), and he wanted to see that happen, both for himself and the other band guys. Remember, Herbie was a full band member, not a traditional manager, so it was split six ways, not the 15-18% (if not more) that Irving Azoff gets. I think he's saying, "Look, take a break, but don't take a 10-year break!" They should have finished the "Raised on Radio" tour (it was cut short, was it not?), take a year off and come back strong. Perry stopped the locomotive in the middle of the track in the middle of the trip and left it to rust. I do think Herbie hated to see something he busted his ass for for 13-14 years suddenly come to a screeching halt because of one guy.

That's where his "they should have replaced him in 1984" comment comes in. Journey, in his opinion, is bigger than one guy (even as big a part of it as Perry was), so let's make the change and keep going. I think it might have taken some time, but there's a very good likelihood the Van Halen model would have worked. Van Halen got bigger, commercially, with Hagar (and I'm a hard-core early VH fan), but I made the switch, too, and bought the Van Hagar CD's.

I don't think Journey would have ever gotten anywhere near the level of success they had without Herbie, so I have to say I agree with about 90% of what he's said.

[larryfromnextdoor]

I do think he's being honest about Perry not being able to sing like he used to. He might not like the guy, but he's always given him props for his talent, and like he said, if you can find a tape of the Bill Graham tribute concert, the proof of the lower key is on there. That's an assertion that can be checked out (not easily, necessarily, but it can be verified). I'm a huge Steve Perry fan, but I can certainly understand if he can't hit the notes he could 22 years ago. Not many people can. Don't ask Robert Plant to sing "Black Dog" like he did back in the day. It ain't gonna' happen.

.

the Herbster blew those tune down keys though.. he just made that up on the fly...but it sounded good.

[conversationpc]

The things I found most interesting about Herbie's comments...

• About how Eddie Van Halen was enamored of Neal's playing and vice versa once Neal finally listened to VH.
• His comment about how Journey dodged a bullet by being outed for the lip-syncing thing in Sweden.
• His comments in general about Neal and his playing. Never really thought of Neal's playing that way even though he's been my favorite guitarist for years now.
• Jon and Neal's comment to Herbie about how "oh man that's tired and in the weeds. That'll never happen" in regards to Herbie's involvement with Europe and "The Final Countdown".
• His enthusiasm for Journey re-recording the classics.
• His comment about Randy Jackson..."Yeah I know 'Yo dude yo.'"
• His comments about certain singers hearing Neal playing their vocal lines on guitar and being totally blown away that anyone could pull it off like that.
• His comments about Augeri's live vocals on the Vegas show. We all know they were pro-tooled but it sounds like they were worse than we thought.

[brywool]

Glad Herbie's unbiased ear heard the same thing my unbiased ear heard with Soto filling in.

Yup. "Jss is more an Alto singer." His voice was too low for the catalog. This was obvious.

His comments on Perry's voice also confirmed a lot of suspicions that the guy's voice has definitely come down and been worn down from the road and now, non-use, contrary to what some of his diehard fans would have you believe.

One thing I disagreed with him about was that Perry never looked at the audience. I never saw that. He seem to connect quite well with them to me. I also preferred his stage presence to Augeri's who just looked to girly to me.

Interesting that Augeri's voice troubles were present early on. Too bad.

Herbert seems to have faith in Arnel. Time will tell.

Definitely an interesting read.

[(Crazy)Dulce Lady]

Glad Herbie's unbiased ear heard the same thing my unbiased ear heard with Soto filling in.

Yup. "Jss is more an Alto singer."

Bingo.

hmm.. if JSS is more of an alto singer, then he actually sings HIGHER than SP, who is a tenor. so JSS is maybe tenor2, although not quite low enough for baritone. if we are getting technical about the range and all.

(my comment is about HH saying 'alto', not you. )