What would have happened....

[Toph]

All this Cornerstone talk poses an interesting question...

What do you think would have happened if First Time had not been shelved as the second single and actually released?

It evidently had top 10 potential if not #1 potential. But on the heels of Babe? What would have happened to the band? What would have happened to the album? Would there have been a Paradise Theater? The easy answer is that Tommy would have left the band. But assume that Tommy wouldn't leave with First Time being released and stayed in the band. What would have been the affect on Styx? Would Cornerstone have been their ESCAPE? HIGH INFIDELITY? You know that one album in the catalog that sold 10 million copies (that Styx never had BTW). Or would they have been completely laughed out of the music industry?

[bugsymalone]

All this Cornerstone talk poses an interesting question...

What do you think would have happened if First Time had not been shelved as the second single and actually released?

It evidently had top 10 potential if not #1 potential. But on the heels of Babe? What would have happened to the band? What would have happened to the album? Would there have been a Paradise Theater? The easy answer is that Tommy would have left the band. But assume that Tommy wouldn't leave with First Time being released and stayed in the band. What would have been the affect on Styx? Would Cornerstone have been their ESCAPE? HIGH INFIDELITY? You know that one album in the catalog that sold 10 million copies (that Styx never had BTW). Or would they have been completely laughed out of the music industry?

Dennis is convinced FT would have been their second No. 1 single and I believe he is right. (And I add that I cringe at the thought.) It probably would have been detrimental to to band's reputation, possibly, but that was pretty much shot anyway long before the outright ballads and the release of Cornerstone.

I have no doubt in my mind that Paradise Theater would have come about and been released exactly as it was and had the same popularity whether they had two No. 1 ballad singles or just the one.

I believe everyone in the band should have been rightfully proud of Paradise Theater and I assume they were.

Bugsy

[Abitaman]

I agree with Bugsy 100%. FT would have lifted it up even higher. Boat may even had got released here stateside too, because of it. Paradise may have even opened bigger on the heels of Cornerstone.
But since I don't have a time machine, or the power to get them to change their mind and release FT, even if I had a time Machine, we will not know.
Many people cringe at the thought of FT, but I actually like the song. But I like High Crimes too...oh well.

[StyxCollector]

All this Cornerstone talk poses an interesting question...

What do you think would have happened if First Time had not been shelved as the second single and actually released?

It evidently had top 10 potential if not #1 potential. But on the heels of Babe? What would have happened to the band? What would have happened to the album? Would there have been a Paradise Theater? The easy answer is that Tommy would have left the band. But assume that Tommy wouldn't leave with First Time being released and stayed in the band. What would have been the affect on Styx? Would Cornerstone have been their ESCAPE? HIGH INFIDELITY? You know that one album in the catalog that sold 10 million copies (that Styx never had BTW). Or would they have been completely laughed out of the music industry?

It's fun to play speculation. I don't think Cornerstone would have been Escape, but PT could have been if the buildup was there. But I think due to DDY being fired (and ultimately taken back) and creating the tension that it did, you got PT. So I'm not sure without what happened we would have seen the album we did which is definitely stronger than Cornerstone. Think about Journey - starting with Infinity it was a slow build up to Escape where it exploded.

The problem is that Journey made that change after three albums and gradually went to Escape. For Styx, it would have been a two album shift from Po8 to GI, where a lot of the fanbase may have been clinging to Po8. PT makes more sense after Po8 than Cornerstone does from a musical standpoint; it has more links (for example, something like "Half Penny" is more ambitious and Styx-like and wouldn't necessarily be out of place on a successor to Po8).

[LordofDaRing]

The timing would have played an important issue here. Styx would have had one more number 1 song that may or may not have alienated fans, but would have most certainly gained them other fans in the process. If Tommy would have left during cornerstone, which he did during KWH, we might never had TMTOMH, and She Cares to debate about. He would have pushed to reunite Styx once he found out that going solo is tougher than what he was told it would be. Due to the timing of everything, there might not have ever been a Damn Yankees, which at least for one album/CD would have sucked. And we might not have had an Edge of the Century with GB.

[Abitaman]

IF is the biggest word we have....

[cinj]

I was living in Baton Rouge, LA in 1979-80. Every night, the popular FM radio station WFMF had "The Top 9 at 9" at 9:00 p.m. I'm sure most radio stations had a similar thing. Anyway, everyone called in and voted during the day for their favorite songs and then they would count them down every evening.

"First Time" was the #1 song for a LONG, LONG time. It was such a huge hit, that for years I thought it WAS released as a single.

So to answer your question, based on what I heard in my hometown, I'm convinced it would have gone top ten. I'm not saying that I was a huge fan of the song (although I think it's o.k.), but my memories are pretty clear.

Cinj

[BlackWall]

I've wondered about this in the past as well.. I'd be willing to bet that "First Time" would have at least gone top 10, but what would have happened then? As we all know, "Babe" was #1, and then the second single, "Why Me" dropped to #26. Had "First Time" been the second single, and had gone top 10, would "Why Me" had been a bigger hit, or even less of one?

In all honesty, I think it would have made the most sense to release "Borrowed Time" as the first single; then "Babe", and then "First Time". Hell, if "Borrowed Time" was a success as the lead single, they should have released "Lights" as the second single, and then get into the ballads after that. I think "Lights" deserved to be a single more so than "Why Me", but I'd be willing to be that A&M wanted a Dennis lead song to follow "Babe", and since the band was so against "First Time", they went with "Why Me".

[classicstyxfan]

It surely would have led to the end of life on earth as we know it !

[fsutall]

I was living in Baton Rouge, LA in 1979-80. Every night, the popular FM radio station WFMF had "The Top 9 at 9" at 9:00 p.m. I'm sure most radio stations had a similar thing. Anyway, everyone called in and voted during the day for their favorite songs and then they would count them down every evening.

"First Time" was the #1 song for a LONG, LONG time. It was such a huge hit, that for years I thought it WAS released as a single.

So to answer your question, based on what I heard in my hometown, I'm convinced it would have gone top ten. I'm not saying that I was a huge fan of the song (although I think it's o.k.), but my memories are pretty clear.

Cinj

I was living in the DC area at the time and local rock station Q107 played First Time frequently as well. I also assumed it was a single.

[froy]

I was living in Baton Rouge, LA in 1979-80. Every night, the popular FM radio station WFMF had "The Top 9 at 9" at 9:00 p.m. I'm sure most radio stations had a similar thing. Anyway, everyone called in and voted during the day for their favorite songs and then they would count them down every evening.

"First Time" was the #1 song for a LONG, LONG time. It was such a huge hit, that for years I thought it WAS released as a single.

So to answer your question, based on what I heard in my hometown, I'm convinced it would have gone top ten. I'm not saying that I was a huge fan of the song (although I think it's o.k.), but my memories are pretty clear.

Cinj

I was living in the DC area at the time and local rock station Q107 played First Time frequently as well. I also assumed it was a single.

They played it in Chicago all the time
I thought it was a single also

[Zan]

I was living in Baton Rouge, LA in 1979-80. Every night, the popular FM radio station WFMF had "The Top 9 at 9" at 9:00 p.m. I'm sure most radio stations had a similar thing. Anyway, everyone called in and voted during the day for their favorite songs and then they would count them down every evening.

"First Time" was the #1 song for a LONG, LONG time. It was such a huge hit, that for years I thought it WAS released as a single.

So to answer your question, based on what I heard in my hometown, I'm convinced it would have gone top ten. I'm not saying that I was a huge fan of the song (although I think it's o.k.), but my memories are pretty clear.

Cinj

I was living in the DC area at the time and local rock station Q107 played First Time frequently as well. I also assumed it was a single.

They played it in Chicago all the time
I thought it was a single also

I heard it frequently in South Florida too. I never thought it *wasn't* a single.

[Tanirocker]

I was living in Baton Rouge, LA in 1979-80.

Whoa...another BR person! Does this mean that you were there for the Styx shows at the Centroplex?

Every night, the popular FM radio station WFMF had "The Top 9 at 9" at 9:00 p.m. I'm sure most radio stations had a similar thing. Anyway, everyone called in and voted during the day for their favorite songs and then they would count them down every evening.

"First Time" was the #1 song for a LONG, LONG time. It was such a huge hit, that for years I thought it WAS released as a single.

Actually, that's why I started listening to K-94 out of Lafayette (I could get it in my car or with cable radio) and WBRH. Although they had been a hard rock station/free-form station, WFMF had started playing the softer stuff that I hated.

I know that Babe was a big hit, and a First Time was popular, but I just never liked either. While having a hit with Babe made them a lot of money, I think it hurt them a great deal in the long run. If they'd released First Time, it would have been the same thing...short-term success but long-term loss of credibility.

If songs like Babe and First Time had been left off of Cornerstone, I think the band's trajectory would have been quite different. I doubt that they'd have ended up doing an album like KWH, and would have gone on to make more ROCK albums.

Oh well...we don't know what kind of effects any changes might have had (think butterfly effect). Maybe one of them would have pulled a Cat Stevens and ended up in a monastery somewhere.

[Rockwriter]

I was living in Baton Rouge, LA in 1979-80.

Whoa...another BR person! Does this mean that you were there for the Styx shows at the Centroplex?

Every night, the popular FM radio station WFMF had "The Top 9 at 9" at 9:00 p.m. I'm sure most radio stations had a similar thing. Anyway, everyone called in and voted during the day for their favorite songs and then they would count them down every evening.

"First Time" was the #1 song for a LONG, LONG time. It was such a huge hit, that for years I thought it WAS released as a single.

Actually, that's why I started listening to K-94 out of Lafayette (I could get it in my car or with cable radio) and WBRH. Although they had been a hard rock station/free-form station, WFMF had started playing the softer stuff that I hated.

I know that Babe was a big hit, and a First Time was popular, but I just never liked either. While having a hit with Babe made them a lot of money, I think it hurt them a great deal in the long run. If they'd released First Time, it would have been the same thing...short-term success but long-term loss of credibility.

If songs like Babe and First Time had been left off of Cornerstone, I think the band's trajectory would have been quite different. I doubt that they'd have ended up doing an album like KWH, and would have gone on to make more ROCK albums.

Oh well...we don't know what kind of effects any changes might have had (think butterfly effect). Maybe one of them would have pulled a Cat Stevens and ended up in a monastery somewhere.

LOL, on a side note to that, at one point a number of years ago when I was not sure whether the Styx bio was going to get enough steam to go actually forward, I started drawing up some notes for an alternate version of the project that basically would have been a fictionalized version of the same story, entitled 'Delusions of Grandeur' instead of 'The Grand Delusion'. It followed the misadventures of a band called Shades, and while there were some really obvious Styx elements to it, I also borrowed funny stories and plot arcs from the careers of lots of other bands. At one point in my book the main character - who was kinda like Dennis, Kerry Livgren and Jon Anderson rolled into one - undergoes a dramatic religious conversion and winds up dragging the other band members into a project called 'Redeemer', kind of like a Christian rock opera, at which point the Tommy-like character - who was actually based on Ace Frehley in many ways - gets hammered before the show one night and ends up freaking out and having a fistfight with the Dennis character onstage before storming off and quitting the band. All of this while wearing oversized fake wings, mind you, LOL. Does everyone remember that Rick Wakeman show that was on ice, like the ice capades? At one point in my story the band, desperate for cash, gets back together to re-stage 'Redeemer', which has been turned into a Broadway musical ala 'Tommy' , but on ice and with an orchestra, LOL. If you can picture all of the excesses of 'Kilroy', the ELP 'Works' era, Kiss with 'Music from"The Elder"', and those kinds of projects all rolled into one, this was supposed to be like that. Pretty funny stuff, but I hadn't thought about it in years until you mentioned Cat Stevens. With the unusual personalities involved in Styx, it's almost surprising that nobody ever got an Extreme Religious Makeover, LOL.

As far as 'Cornerstone' goes, it was inevitable that the band would start to divide against itself at that point. Almost all bands do in the wake of that much success. Styx was a pretty textbook case of a band that, having built a huge amount of success, then started taking it all apart, piece by piece. Though I've always thought Behind The Music was really a flawed picture of Styx, it did say one thing that's hauntingly true: Eventually the band the critics couldn't touch tore itself apart.LOL, truer words were never spoken. I've always thought 'Cornerstone' was merely a symptom, not the disease.

I hope all is well.


Sterling





As far as 'Cornerstone' goes,

[cinj]

I was living in Baton Rouge, LA in 1979-80.

Whoa...another BR person! Does this mean that you were there for the Styx shows at the Centroplex?

Never made it to the Centroplex for a Styx show. I became a huge fan <B>right after</B> they sold the venue out in January of 1981. I had plans to go see them in 83 in New Orleans, but then those shows sold out as well.
It's funny that you mention WBRH. I used to <I>work there!</I> I was never a DJ, but that was a station run by high school kids at my high school.

take care!
Cinj

[Tanirocker]

With the unusual personalities involved in Styx, it's almost surprising that nobody ever got an Extreme Religious Makeover, LOL.

"Tommy Krishna, Tommy Krishna...Krishna, Krishna...Tommy Tommy..." *giggle*
I'm certainly glad that JY didn't turn into a real-life Dr. Righteous.

As far as 'Cornerstone' goes, it was inevitable that the band would start to divide against itself at that point. Almost all bands do in the wake of that much success. Styx was a pretty textbook case of a band that, having built a huge amount of success, then started taking it all apart, piece by piece.

Sad but true. It seems to happen to every band that makes it big. The only one that I can think of that stayed together until death parted them was Queen. It's hard for two people to stay together forever, so I guess we shouldn't expect four, five or more to be able to do it. People grow and change and sometimes it makes it hard for them to continue to work together. Success certainly brings change. Sometimes I think that the best music comes from bands who are still reaching for the stars. Once you get comfortable, it's easy to neglect your creativity.

[Tanirocker]

Never made it to the Centroplex for a Styx show. I became a huge fan <B>right after</B> they sold the venue out in January of 1981. I had plans to go see them in 83 in New Orleans, but then those shows sold out as well.

Oh yes, those shows all sold out in a heartbeat. I was actually standing in line at the Centroplex when tickets went on sale, even though they were all GA shows back then. To this day Styx is hugely popular in the area.

It's funny that you mention WBRH. I used to <I>work there!</I> I was never a DJ, but that was a station run by high school kids at my high school.

That always amazed me. I thought it was the best station in the city, bar none. While every other "rock" station in town was playing ballads or disco, WBRH was playing Rush's 2112 Overture, Suite Madam Blue, Alice's Restaurant, various selections from Dr. Demento and locals like Asia, Zebra or LeRoux as well. Seriously...I've worked in radio on and off for 27 years, and I've never found another station that handled such an extensive playlist without having segue issues. I was working at K-94, and everyone there used to talk about it.

Maybe we should get all of the Louisiana chyx together during the holidays. I'll be back in BR for ten days. E-mail me! Tanirocker@aol.com

[StyxCollector]

Sad but true. It seems to happen to every band that makes it big. The only one that I can think of that stayed together until death parted them was Queen. It's hard for two people to stay together forever, so I guess we shouldn't expect four, five or more to be able to do it. People grow and change and sometimes it makes it hard for them to continue to work together. Success certainly brings change. Sometimes I think that the best music comes from bands who are still reaching for the stars. Once you get comfortable, it's easy to neglect your creativity.

Queen had their issues, too. They made it through a lot of shit, but it doesn't mean it was tension free. You had lead three singers and four writers in the band. Queen clearly put it to good use and were friends to the end, although how John Deacon basically bowed out after Made In Heaven speaks volumes.

[Zan]

Aerosmith and The Rolling Stones for the most part, have held their shit together after decades of huge success.

[brywool]

I agree with Bugsy 100%. FT would have lifted it up even higher. Boat may even had got released here stateside too, because of it. Paradise may have even opened bigger on the heels of Cornerstone.
But since I don't have a time machine, or the power to get them to change their mind and release FT, even if I had a time Machine, we will not know.
Many people cringe at the thought of FT, but I actually like the song. But I like High Crimes too...oh well.

FT would've lifted it higher with non-fans. However, true fans of the band would've hated it.
FT is one of the worst songs to ever come out of Styx. Terrible song. That would've given even more fodder for those that didn't like the band. Thank God, they didn't do that.

[Tanirocker]

Aerosmith and The Rolling Stones for the most part, have held their shit together after decades of huge success.

True, but I was thinking in terms of keeping the same line-up with no break-ups. Aerosmith broke my lil' teen heart in 1980 when Joe Perry left. Fortunately they finally got their drug problems under control and reformed the band with the original members about six years later. Their come-back is legendary. It's amazing how they managed to be bigger than ever the second time around.

As for the Stones, over the years, they've parted company with Ian Stewart, Dick Taylor, Mick Taylor and Bill Wyman. They also lost Brian Jones in 1969, and it's doubtful that he would have stayed with the band much longer.

Oh man...Zannie, you heaux, it just occurred to me that you weren't even born then. Have I told you lately that I hate you for being nearly ten years younger than I am?

[Rockwriter]

With the unusual personalities involved in Styx, it's almost surprising that nobody ever got an Extreme Religious Makeover, LOL.

"Tommy Krishna, Tommy Krishna...Krishna, Krishna...Tommy Tommy..." *giggle*
I'm certainly glad that JY didn't turn into a real-life Dr. Righteous.

As far as 'Cornerstone' goes, it was inevitable that the band would start to divide against itself at that point. Almost all bands do in the wake of that much success. Styx was a pretty textbook case of a band that, having built a huge amount of success, then started taking it all apart, piece by piece.

Sad but true. It seems to happen to every band that makes it big. The only one that I can think of that stayed together until death parted them was Queen. It's hard for two people to stay together forever, so I guess we shouldn't expect four, five or more to be able to do it. People grow and change and sometimes it makes it hard for them to continue to work together. Success certainly brings change. Sometimes I think that the best music comes from bands who are still reaching for the stars. Once you get comfortable, it's easy to neglect your creativity.

You're right, Queen is a good example of a band that argued through its differences and was able to compromise or live with the results. I'm sure Brian May, for instance, probably wouldn't point to 'Hot Space'as an album that really demonstrates the best of what he has to offer as a member of Queen, but he worked through it and stayed in there and fought for his vision to be more fully realized on the following records. That's the only way it can work, is if everyone stays engaged in the work fully. Another example is Rush; although they had a member change early on, the core unit has been unchanged for decade after decade and still enjoys a nice measure of success.

Boy, is that marriage analogy a good one. Yes, people change and want different things, and you also have to factor in money. Financial differences are a huge factor in most divorces and in most business breakups, and a band is both a marriage AND a business, so it obviously plays a role.

I hope all is well.


Sterling

[stmonkeys]

add U2 to the list of bands that have held their shit together and remained unchanged. they've been together since the very late 70s, which is hard to believe. I can't think of many other bands that have had the same lineup on EVERY album they have recorded. quite a feat.

[Tanirocker]

add U2 to the list of bands that have held their shit together and remained unchanged. they've been together since the very late 70s, which is hard to believe. I can't think of many other bands that have had the same lineup on EVERY album they have recorded. quite a feat.

Oooh! GOOD one! That would be an excellent trivia question.


Tani

[Abitaman]

I agree with Bugsy 100%. FT would have lifted it up even higher. Boat may even had got released here stateside too, because of it. Paradise may have even opened bigger on the heels of Cornerstone.
But since I don't have a time machine, or the power to get them to change their mind and release FT, even if I had a time Machine, we will not know.
Many people cringe at the thought of FT, but I actually like the song. But I like High Crimes too...oh well.

FT would've lifted it higher with non-fans. However, true fans of the band would've hated it.
FT is one of the worst songs to ever come out of Styx. Terrible song. That would've given even more fodder for those that didn't like the band. Thank God, they didn't do that.

What I like about FT, is the majestic feeling you get from the song. The keys, the high harmonies and the "rock" guitar all add to the song.
True FT would have turned off some of the older Styx fans, but new fans would have come in.
Look at Journey, Neal fought to keep Open Arms off the cd, and it was one of the band's biggest hits. After one show when all the girls were going wild it is said that Schon turned to Perry and said "this song rocks!" So who can say.

[stmonkeys]

I agree with Bugsy 100%. FT would have lifted it up even higher. Boat may even had got released here stateside too, because of it. Paradise may have even opened bigger on the heels of Cornerstone.
But since I don't have a time machine, or the power to get them to change their mind and release FT, even if I had a time Machine, we will not know.
Many people cringe at the thought of FT, but I actually like the song. But I like High Crimes too...oh well.

FT would've lifted it higher with non-fans. However, true fans of the band would've hated it.
FT is one of the worst songs to ever come out of Styx. Terrible song. That would've given even more fodder for those that didn't like the band. Thank God, they didn't do that.

What I like about FT, is the majestic feeling you get from the song. The keys, the high harmonies and the "rock" guitar all add to the song.
True FT would have turned off some of the older Styx fans, but new fans would have come in.

ahhahhahahahaha..... oh wait... you were being serious


fwiw, i think FT is utter shite, to borrow a term from zan. i can somewhat tolerate babe but FT is nowhere NEAR being in the same league as that song. face it, it sucks. should have been left off the record. IMO.

[chowhall]

[ahhahhahahahaha..... oh wait... you were being serious


fwiw, i think FT is utter shite, to borrow a term from zan. i can somewhat tolerate babe but FT is nowhere NEAR being in the same league as that song. face it, it sucks. should have been left off the record. IMO.

P.O.T.D.

[Rockwriter]

add U2 to the list of bands that have held their shit together and remained unchanged. they've been together since the very late 70s, which is hard to believe. I can't think of many other bands that have had the same lineup on EVERY album they have recorded. quite a feat.

Oooh! GOOD one! That would be an excellent trivia question.


Tani

Wow, that really is a stumper. Very few, LOL, that's all I can say. I hadn't thought of U2. They may, in fact, be the ONLY example, since even Queen eventually plowed on with Paul. Most bands have to have a family tree, LOL.


Sterling

[Rockwriter]

I agree with Bugsy 100%. FT would have lifted it up even higher. Boat may even had got released here stateside too, because of it. Paradise may have even opened bigger on the heels of Cornerstone.
But since I don't have a time machine, or the power to get them to change their mind and release FT, even if I had a time Machine, we will not know.
Many people cringe at the thought of FT, but I actually like the song. But I like High Crimes too...oh well.

FT would've lifted it higher with non-fans. However, true fans of the band would've hated it.
FT is one of the worst songs to ever come out of Styx. Terrible song. That would've given even more fodder for those that didn't like the band. Thank God, they didn't do that.

What I like about FT, is the majestic feeling you get from the song. The keys, the high harmonies and the "rock" guitar all add to the song.
True FT would have turned off some of the older Styx fans, but new fans would have come in.

ahhahhahahahaha..... oh wait... you were being serious


fwiw, i think FT is utter shite, to borrow a term from zan. i can somewhat tolerate babe but FT is nowhere NEAR being in the same league as that song. face it, it sucks. should have been left off the record. IMO.

You know, I've always liked "Babe". I think it's a well-written song, and the band (well, mainly Dennis, John and Chuck, actually, with a special guest shot from Tommy) made a great record of it that deserved to be the hit it was. But even for me, "First Time" just doesn't do it. Dennis is one of my favorite singers, but I hate the vocal performance on this song, that lilting falsetto, those overlayered "don't be afraid of love" harmonies . . . and I for one think the heavy guitar in the song just makes it worse. Unlike "Babe", where there's not much guitar but at least it is stylistically appropriate, the guitar solo on "First Time" sounds to me like someone (Tommy, I guess) said, "Fuck it, if I have to play on this shit, then I'm going to make it ROCK!" LOL, when it shouldn't have. That solo is just overbearing and out of place in the song. The whole track doesn't work for me. But as I always say, different strokes.

I hope all is well.


Sterling Whitaker

[stmonkeys]

add U2 to the list of bands that have held their shit together and remained unchanged. they've been together since the very late 70s, which is hard to believe. I can't think of many other bands that have had the same lineup on EVERY album they have recorded. quite a feat.

Oooh! GOOD one! That would be an excellent trivia question.


Tani

Wow, that really is a stumper. Very few, LOL, that's all I can say. I hadn't thought of U2. They may, in fact, be the ONLY example, since even Queen eventually plowed on with Paul. Most bands have to have a family tree, LOL.


Sterling

honestly, besides U2, i really CAN'T think of another band that had one consistent lineup through *multiple* decades. the doors recorded an album or 2 after jim died, the beatles impact is undeniable, but their tenure was relatively short. i would use LZ as an example, but they were only around for 12 years. hmmm... anybody else think of a band with a 15 or 20+year career and one lineup?