Tommy really ran the band?

[Toph]

In hearing/reading some of these interviews with DDY on Allan's site and on retro rewind, I think it is safe to say that Tommy Shaw carried a lot more influence within the band than I personally ever thought. The picture that has been painted for years is that Tommy (and to a lesser extent JY) were subject to Dennis's control over the band, its affairs, its singles, etc. It doesn't appear to be the case at all. If anything, Tommy exuded a tremendous amount of control, especially as it relates to the singles that were released (and JY as well). I can count at least 3 times where Dennis and/or the record company were overruled by Tommy and once by JY/Glen. Unfortunately, it appears that Tommy did this sometimes to his own personal detriment. Of the 3 singles that Tommy affected their release, all 3 appeared to have top 10, if not top 5 potential. And two of them were his songs!! Consider the First Time debacle. If you believe Dennis, that affects Boat On the River that doesn't ever get released in the US. And instead you get two weak single releases in Why Me and BT. And then on Kilroy, Haven't We Been Here Before was totally set up to be a huge 3rd single - cool 80s video, the momentum of two top 10 singles in front of it, and a very radio friendly tune. Would have been Tommy's biggest hit as a member of Styx, but yet he overrules that and votes to release a live version of Cold War?!?! WTF?!?! So, then High Time, another weak single, is released and kills the remaining momentum that Kilroy has. Those 3 single mis-steps cost Cornerstone at least a million copies sold (if you believe DDY) and probably costs Kilroy at least 500,000 copies sold. It also prevents Styx from having 11 top 10 singles vs. the 8 that they currently have. 11 top 10 singles puts you in some pretty exclusive company....

The final single was JY and Glen's overruling of DDY on Edge. DDY wanted the title track, JY and Glen wanted LITR, and the record company wanted SMTW to be the first single. Not sure if Edge would have fared any better than LITR, but it is interesting to imagine the consequences of all these decisions...

Net, net, I'm not sure that DDY was the "dictator" that he is commonly perceived as.

[BlackWall]

Tommy was insane for not wanting "Haven't We Been Here Before" to be released, but personally, I think it should have been the second single, instead of "Don't Let It End". I went back and gave "Cold War" another listen recently, trying to decide if it had single potential, and I'm still kind of undecided.. It's not a great song, but it might have been better than "High Time" as a single. Had it all been up to me, I would have done, "Mr. Roboto", "Haven't We Been Here Before", and "Double Life".

The "First Time" thing I can understand a little more, but it probably did cost the band a second top ten single from "Cornerstone". I'm not convinced though that even had "Boat On The River" been released, it would have been a hit here in the states.. I would say "Babe", "First Time", and either "Borrowed Time" or "Lights" might have been the best course of action for "Cornerstone; really, I think they should have done "Borrowed Time", "Babe", "First Time", and then had a 4th single in "Lights", but it seems like there was always a three song max per album.

"Love Is The Ritual" was a better choice for a single, hands down, but it should have been second, after "Show Me The Way".

[Zan]

yawn

[gr8dane]

yawn

Now now,there there Zan.
I think topher is on to something.
He must have read and re-read not only once,not only twice,but thrice,all them interviews and what not.
Painstakingly taking notes and pieced all this together,into an altogether new theory,that conveniently gets Dennis of the hook of any wrongdoing.
I myself got absorbed in this new Tommy is to blame,as if it was the honest to goodness truth.
As a matter fact I have totally forgotten that Dennis is at fault for anything ever, what so ever.
Now what the hell was I doing before I sat down to write this?

[Monker]

I'll leave the speculating on what happens in alternate universes to JJ Abrams.

Your post is basicaly a bunch of speculation, presumptions and fiction, all wrapped up in a paragragh.

In hearing/reading some of these interviews with DDY on Allan's site and on retro rewind, I think it is safe to say that Tommy Shaw carried a lot more influence within the band than I personally ever thought. The picture that has been painted for years is that Tommy (and to a lesser extent JY) were subject to Dennis's control over the band, its affairs, its singles, etc. It doesn't appear to be the case at all. If anything, Tommy exuded a tremendous amount of control, especially as it relates to the singles that were released (and JY as well). I can count at least 3 times where Dennis and/or the record company were overruled by Tommy and once by JY/Glen. Unfortunately, it appears that Tommy did this sometimes to his own personal detriment. Of the 3 singles that Tommy affected their release, all 3 appeared to have top 10, if not top 5 potential. And two of them were his songs!! Consider the First Time debacle. If you believe Dennis, that affects Boat On the River that doesn't ever get released in the US. And instead you get two weak single releases in Why Me and BT. And then on Kilroy, Haven't We Been Here Before was totally set up to be a huge 3rd single - cool 80s video, the momentum of two top 10 singles in front of it, and a very radio friendly tune. Would have been Tommy's biggest hit as a member of Styx, but yet he overrules that and votes to release a live version of Cold War?!?! WTF?!?! So, then High Time, another weak single, is released and kills the remaining momentum that Kilroy has. Those 3 single mis-steps cost Cornerstone at least a million copies sold (if you believe DDY) and probably costs Kilroy at least 500,000 copies sold. It also prevents Styx from having 11 top 10 singles vs. the 8 that they currently have. 11 top 10 singles puts you in some pretty exclusive company....

The final single was JY and Glen's overruling of DDY on Edge. DDY wanted the title track, JY and Glen wanted LITR, and the record company wanted SMTW to be the first single. Not sure if Edge would have fared any better than LITR, but it is interesting to imagine the consequences of all these decisions...

Net, net, I'm not sure that DDY was the "dictator" that he is commonly perceived as.

[Rockwriter]

Speculation aside, all this thread is really saying is that Dennis did not have the ability to run the band however he liked, which is absolutely true. Again, there was a voting procedure in which each man had a vote. And again, Dennis did not have the ability to dictate singles choices until EOTC (and even then he chose to go with a song not his own first, which I incidentally agree was a whopper of a mistake). Record companies exist to exploit recordings for money, and A&M kept going with Dennis because they kept making money from going with his songs, and because his songs kept test marketing well. When Tommy's songs test marketed better, they went with those instead. That's how it works in every band, not just that one. And it fosters resentment in every band, not just that one.

I DO find it interesting that Tommy preferred the live "Cold War" as a single over "Haven't We Been Here Before" if that's true, but I ask everyone to remember the head space he was in at that time. In his own words, "I was just walking resentment most of the time". At that point anything management, the record company or JY and Dennis wanted, he would automatically push against. That's one of the reasons the other guys wanted to just replace him when he quit. They were honest to God sick of him at that point because of the way he was behaving like a spoiled child so much of the time. This is all stuff he admits, by the way. If you've ever known someone in the throes of an addiction, you know what I'm talking about. It's like they go away and someone else entirely comes in. Tommy's been over all that for decades - if I'm not mistaken this year is twenty years' sobriety for him - but at the time it was tough to reason with him.

As far as the interview with Allan being some kind of whitewash to absolve Dennis of any wrong doing, what I actually find interesting about this interview is that it doesn't come off like Dennis is even trying to do that, at least not to me. Seems to me he's just finally decided to tell his side of some stories that we have only heard one side of up until now. He fully takes blame for several things. He took the blame for the KILROY tour starting in small halls when it should have played larger places first. He took sole blame for choosing LITR as the 1st single off EOTC even though he actually thought the title song was stronger, and the record company wanted SMTW. One of the most interesting things to me was him explaining the whole 'Boomchild' debacle from his perspective. We've always heard from the other side that it was because of him that a Tommy/Styx reunion did not happen then, and what he basically says in Allan's interview is, "Yes, that's true, but here's why my hands were tied to do anything else." Not denial, just explanation. Interesting stuff, and kudos again to Allan for getting it.

Understand I'm not trying to say that Dennis does not have ego and is not a strong personality capable of sometimes overwhelming others by sheer force (something else he admits to Allan). But as I've posted again and again, the one-sided picture we've often been presented of him as a dictator is simply not real. He was one person in a five-person voting system, LOL. There's no way to dictate in that scenario.

I hope all is well.


Sterling

[Toph]

Speculation aside, all this thread is really saying is that Dennis did not have the ability to run the band however he liked, which is absolutely true. Again, there was a voting procedure in which each man had a vote. And again, Dennis did not have the ability to dictate singles choices until EOTC (and even then he chose to go with a song not his own first, which I incidentally agree was a whopper of a mistake). Record companies exist to exploit recordings for money, and A&M kept going with Dennis because they kept making money from going with his songs, and because his songs kept test marketing well. When Tommy's songs test marketed better, they went with those instead. That's how it works in every band, not just that one. And it fosters resentment in every band, not just that one.

I DO find it interesting that Tommy preferred the live "Cold War" as a single over "Haven't We Been Here Before" if that's true, but I ask everyone to remember the head space he was in at that time. In his own words, "I was just walking resentment most of the time". At that point anything management, the record company or JY and Dennis wanted, he would automatically push against. That's one of the reasons the other guys wanted to just replace him when he quit. They were honest to God sick of him at that point because of the way he was behaving like a spoiled child so much of the time. This is all stuff he admits, by the way. If you've ever known someone in the throes of an addiction, you know what I'm talking about. It's like they go away and someone else entirely comes in. Tommy's been over all that for decades - if I'm not mistaken this year is twenty years' sobriety for him - but at the time it was tough to reason with him.

As far as the interview with Allan being some kind of whitewash to absolve Dennis of any wrong doing, what I actually find interesting about this interview is that it doesn't come off like Dennis is even trying to do that, at least not to me. Seems to me he's just finally decided to tell his side of some stories that we have only heard one side of up until now. He fully takes blame for several things. He took the blame for the KILROY tour starting in small halls when it should have played larger places first. He took sole blame for choosing LITR as the 1st single off EOTC even though he actually thought the title song was stronger, and the record company wanted SMTW. One of the most interesting things to me was him explaining the whole 'Boomchild' debacle from his perspective. We've always heard from the other side that it was because of him that a Tommy/Styx reunion did not happen then, and what he basically says in Allan's interview is, "Yes, that's true, but here's why my hands were tied to do anything else." Not denial, just explanation. Interesting stuff, and kudos again to Allan for getting it.

Understand I'm not trying to say that Dennis does not have ego and is not a strong personality capable of sometimes overwhelming others by sheer force (something else he admits to Allan). But as I've posted again and again, the one-sided picture we've often been presented of him as a dictator is simply not real. He was one person in a five-person voting system, LOL. There's no way to dictate in that scenario.

I hope all is well.


Sterling

Exactly my point, but articulated much better! We know who the writer is here!

[yogi]

I thought it was a GREAT post!!!

One side note Cold War is damn near as AWEFUL as High Time. Both those songs are BRUTAL and belong in the Plexiglass Toilet. I can't imagine how two songs that Styx did could be As Bad As This!!!! Tommy must have been doing some major blow to think Cold War was good at all.

For me the entire Side One of Kilroy sucked. It did then and it does now. At the time I could not believe that this was the Styx that I liked so much. Twenty plus years later I can stomach Roboto, but the rest of side one is putrid.

Now Side 2, I really enjoyed. Then and now!

[BlackWall]

I think it was a good post, too. Everyone always blames Dennis for the demise of the band, but I think it's only fair to consider all of the factors. Not that Tommy holding out on songs like "First Time" and "Haven't We Been Here Before" really lead to the demise, lol, but it did hold the band back from futher successes.

Granted, at the end of the day, I can't really fault him for the "First Time" situation; I mean, really, we'd just have one more song that makes people cringe when they think of Styx.. I bet it'd be a wedding classic!

[Monker]

I think it was a good post, too. Everyone always blames Dennis for the demise of the band, but I think it's only fair to consider all of the factors. Not that Tommy holding out on songs like "First Time" and "Haven't We Been Here Before" really lead to the demise, lol, but it did hold the band back from futher successes.

Granted, at the end of the day, I can't really fault him for the "First Time" situation; I mean, really, we'd just have one more song that makes people cringe when they think of Styx.. I bet it'd be a wedding classic!

This is all such bullshit.

First of all, the point if this thread was the "Tommy ran the band"...not that it was a democracy and everybody had a vote....as Sterling points out. Get your story straight BEFORE you make such a thread.

Nobody knows what other singles would have done. It's all speculation...based on nothing but personal opinion. I don't see any of these songs doing any better then any that were released. Tommy pushed songs he liked, or 'whatever'...who cares, it's history.

As for the DY/Styx thing....When Dennis admitted, I believe in his interview on this site, that HE TOLD TOMMY TO ACCEPT DY's offer, hat told me all I needed to know.

These arguments are so old and worn that they are meaningless. Those who continue the arguments are only doing so out of spite. Get over it.

[Ash]

First of all, the point if this thread was the "Tommy ran the band"...not that it was a democracy and everybody had a vote....as Sterling points out. Get your story straight BEFORE you make such a thread.

Doesn't stop you from running your mouth when you have no clue.

These arguments are so old and worn that they are meaningless. Those who continue the arguments are only doing so out of spite. Get over it.

Yet you are one of the biggest participants in said arguments.

[Zan]

Doesn't stop you from running your mouth when you have no clue.

What's funny is that he does have one. Actually, it's *really* funny.

[sadie65]

Doesn't stop you from running your mouth when you have no clue.

What's funny is that he does have one. Actually, it's *really* funny.

It's pretty much what anyone on this forum has....a clue. Not the whole story...and I'd wager even if we did...our minds are so fully made up at this point that determining truth or accuracy is beyond subjective. I find that sadly funny.

[mrbluesman]

For me the entire Side One of Kilroy sucked. It did then and it does now. At the time I could not believe that this was the Styx that I liked so much. Twenty plus years later I can stomach Roboto, but the rest of side one is putrid.

Let me just add the following. I loved Styx until Kilroy came out. As I recall, it came out sometime in late winter/early spring 83. I was getting ready to graduate high school and was stunned that Mr. Roboto was a Styx song. It was the 1st time in ages that I did not purchase a Styx album. "Don't Let It End" made my skin crawl. Finally, I listened to the whole album at a friend's house and I thought it was, well, ....awful. A year or so later, I bought it in a cut-out bin for a buck. I listened again and still hated it. Years later, I bought the CD (used) for a buck and, well, still hated it. I listened to it again over the weekend and, upon further review, still hate it. It's junk. The only song I can listen to is "Haven't We Been Here Before" and I probably like that one because I liked the video when it was released (I still can see Tommy swinging on that pendulum).

Anyway, if Tommy ran the band, how is it that this crap got released? I think the truth is that is was more of a democracy (Sterling's book and Behind The Music and other material [band quotes] make that fairly clear), but, to paraphrase George Orwell, in Styx, I think although all the animals were equal, some animals were more equal than others. Thus, I think DDY (writing most of the hits) had more of a say than, say, John.

And, in all candor, DDY's decisions on Kilroy were bad and pissed off TS, thus, in Tommy's own words, causing Tommy to want to leave the band. BTW, if I had been in that band, I would have nixed "First Time" as the follow up to "Babe," too. It really does sound like something Barry Manilow would write and record and, at the time of Cornerstone, Styx was still considered a rock band as opposed to a top 40 band. And, if TS ran the band, why on earth would he ever have allowed "Music Time" to be released. I realize he had "quit" the band by that point, but, come on. That song has always made me cringe.

In hearing/reading some of these interviews with DDY

I got you, but, consider the source. DDY, of course, isn't going to say, "listen, I was an egomaniacal ass in the 80s and so......"

Which is not to say that I think the demise of the group was all his fault. TS, himself, as pointed out by Sterling acted like a petulant child and was pursuing the whole drugged up, rock star life. Chuck has said he thinks DDY, TS, and JY wanted to do solo albums (presumably to prove that they were each the "true star" of Styx) and that's why the group split. Rarely in life is there one reason or cause behind any decision or action. I'm sure that each of these played a part. I just think DDY and his actions were a substantial part of the break up. I did find many of his comments interesting, as well.

As to whether any of us would believe the truth, who the hell even knows the truth anymore. I'm sure the guys don't and, anyway, there are always going to be shades of truth to anything.

[Zan]

Doesn't stop you from running your mouth when you have no clue.

What's funny is that he does have one. Actually, it's *really* funny.

It's pretty much what anyone on this forum has....a clue. Not the whole story...

Not to the extent that you're making it seem. Some are very much more informed than others.

and I'd wager even if we did...our minds are so fully made up at this point that determining truth or accuracy is beyond subjective. I find that sadly funny.

Again, there is an element of truth to what you say, but I'd wager that a lot here are more open-minded than some of the more closed-minded people think.

[Monker]

First of all, the point if this thread was the "Tommy ran the band"...not that it was a democracy and everybody had a vote....as Sterling points out. Get your story straight BEFORE you make such a thread.

Doesn't stop you from running your mouth when you have no clue.

These arguments are so old and worn that they are meaningless. Those who continue the arguments are only doing so out of spite. Get over it.

Yet you are one of the biggest participants in said arguments.

No I'm not....I hardly ever get involved because it is a HUGE waste of time.

[Monker]

Doesn't stop you from running your mouth when you have no clue.

What's funny is that he does have one. Actually, it's *really* funny.

Thank you!

[sadie65]

Not to the extent that you're making it seem. Some are very much more informed than others.

Indeed. I am well aware of that...however it still doesn't change the fact that even the "more informed" do not have the whole story.

Again, there is an element of truth to what you say, but I'd wager that a lot here are more open-minded than some of the more closed-minded people think.

And I'd wager it still comes down to what a person values that determines open mindedness. I think this forum runs the gamut from "open minded" to "snapped shut like a steel trap".

Peace to all

[Ash]

And I'd wager it still comes down to what a person values that determines open mindedness. I think this forum runs the gamut from "open minded" to "snapped shut like a steel trap".

People are people. Like you said, we're all open and/or closed minded depending on the subject at hand. The stronger your opinion, the more closed minded you might be. That doesn't really make anyone better or worse than anyone else - it just is what it is. Hell we could sit here and discuss what "open mindedness" means and never come to a consensus.

Someone says something positive about Dennis and they don't know what they're talking about. Someone says something positive Styx, then they're the dumbass. Rinse.... repeat. It's part of the culture here and it's not something that is ever going to change.

What makes it humorous is when people who participate in it turn around and complain about the very thing they're engaging in. That's about the only time I step in these days.

[KWH17]

As for the topic at hand, I believe that everybody in the band had their "moments of power", and made the band do things their way for that incident[s]. It's probably common in most bands, and in fact probably makes for a better band. Bands that are dictated by one guy have a habit of falling apart.