Dennis's New Band

[LtVanish]

I disagree with this. How much would it cost to write a song, play it live and record it, and put it on ITunes for download? Doesn't seem like it would cost much at all to me.

Writing a song is time. Sure, a live version could be recorded for some format.

The thing boils down to distribution. I don't do downloads, and certainly wouldn't buy a lossy product. I don't have iTunes installed and won't do it just for one track. Most people today want music for free. I want a physical CD at 44.1/16, no MP3, etc. A lot of the older folks (the core audience for Styx) may not be technologically aware or good at it, so doing download only doesn't make sense.

I just don't see them doing a piecemeal offering. Styx seems like a go big or go home kind of band.

Doesn't seem to be stopping Cheap Trick, they are still pumping out new material. I think it is time for Styx to at least try playing an album in concert, like "Grand Illusion" from start to finish, I think this would be a cool way to keep things fresh. Or is singing 'Superstars" out of their vocal range now? I really love the concept of playing full albums in concert.

[StyxCollector]

Styx is not Cheap Trick. As Sterling said, bands who have had some sort of major success on the scale of Styx, Kiss, Aerosmith, etc., really are not about losing money or giving away product. Cheap Trick never had the same success as Styx, Kiss, Rush, etc. Cheap Trick has basically been independent since the 90s give or take.

If Styx does not want to release an album, so be it. Based on the past few new songs, no big loss.

[LtVanish]

Styx is not Cheap Trick. As Sterling said, bands who have had some sort of major success on the scale of Styx, Kiss, Aerosmith, etc., really are not about losing money or giving away product. Cheap Trick never had the same success as Styx, Kiss, Rush, etc. Cheap Trick has basically been independent since the 90s give or take.

If Styx does not want to release an album, so be it. Based on the past few new songs, no big loss.

I don't know if you are going to compare Styx's sucess with Aerosmith's, then comparing Styx to Cheap Trick seems to be right in line quite honest. I am going out on a limb and say that world wide, Cheap Trick is more popular than Styx.

[bugsymalone]

... worldwide, Cheap Trick is more popular than Styx.

And far more respected.


Bugsy

[Rockwriter]

Styx is not Cheap Trick. As Sterling said, bands who have had some sort of major success on the scale of Styx, Kiss, Aerosmith, etc., really are not about losing money or giving away product. Cheap Trick never had the same success as Styx, Kiss, Rush, etc. Cheap Trick has basically been independent since the 90s give or take.

If Styx does not want to release an album, so be it. Based on the past few new songs, no big loss.

I don't know if you are going to compare Styx's sucess with Aerosmith's, then comparing Styx to Cheap Trick seems to be right in line quite honest. I am going out on a limb and say that world wide, Cheap Trick is more popular than Styx.

I haven't looked at album sales to compare but I very much doubt it. As far as hit singles, ticket sales and continued visibility, it's Styx by an enormous landslide. Cheap Trick really had a few hit singles, and far between, and when they tour on bigger bills they are the opening act, straight up. You can't begin to reasonably compare the bands in terms of $$$$ or numbers. Styx has done WAY more total business.

I'll point this out again: in that moment, Styx was every bit as big as Aerosmith, Journey, anyone else. It sold as many records in that moment, and at one point it outsold them ALL in concert tickets. That's why the band is sustaining as well as it is. Where Journey, Aerosmith and others like that overtook Styx was AFTER the fact, when those bands made far better business decisions that sustained their visibility. Styx has made very dodgy choices since about 1981, at least, and taken away a lot of its own momentum. For instance, Journey sold more than half of its total album sales AFTER the breakup in the post-RoR era. That's because they still had Herbie Herbert, and he owned a financial interest, which gave him incentive to go out and work with the catalogue, make sure radio was still playing it, make sure the record company was on top of it. He used the band's downtime to double its sales. Styx, by contrast, fired Derek Sutton, then went to Azoff - who had no personal connection to the band's success - and then broke up. Azoff had no reason to continue to work with the catalogue, and Sutton was no longer involved, so for that 7 year period there was nobody to go and get the label interested in the catalogue, either. That's why we got such a half-ass hits package with that cut-rate 'Classics' thing, and it's also why a lot of the abums that had sold 3-4 million copies weren't even in the store anymore, or at a reduced rate. And we all know the choices they've made with the catalogue since then. The Styx catalogue is now under-valued, but it's not because the band is less successful than other bands of that era. It's because Styx tends to make short-term, short-sighted business choices that end up blowing back in the band's face. Sad, but that's the way it has been with this band pretty consistently. They point a lot of fingers, but in the end I've always said most of the damage done to this band has been self-inflicted.

As far as Cheap Trick being "more respected" goes (and I know that's from another post), by whom? Critics don't like either band, and the public chose to honor Styx with far more success. So who exactly is it that respects Cheap Trick more? The handful of people who like to talk about whether a band "rocks" or not? As if that's a litmus test for quality. By that measure half of The Beatles' output is no good, so I question that standard.


Sterling

[Toph]

Styx is not Cheap Trick. As Sterling said, bands who have had some sort of major success on the scale of Styx, Kiss, Aerosmith, etc., really are not about losing money or giving away product. Cheap Trick never had the same success as Styx, Kiss, Rush, etc. Cheap Trick has basically been independent since the 90s give or take.

If Styx does not want to release an album, so be it. Based on the past few new songs, no big loss.

I don't know if you are going to compare Styx's sucess with Aerosmith's, then comparing Styx to Cheap Trick seems to be right in line quite honest. I am going out on a limb and say that world wide, Cheap Trick is more popular than Styx.

I haven't looked at album sales to compare but I very much doubt it. As far as hit singles, ticket sales and continued visibility, it's Styx by an enormous landslide. Cheap Trick really had a few hit singles, and far between, and when they tour on bigger bills they are the opening act, straight up. You can't begin to reasonably compare the bands in terms of $$$$ or numbers. Styx has done WAY more total business.

I'll point this out again: in that moment, Styx was every bit as big as Aerosmith, Journey, anyone else. It sold as many records in that moment, and at one point it outsold them ALL in concert tickets. That's why the band is sustaining as well as it is. Where Journey, Aerosmith and others like that overtook Styx was AFTER the fact, when those bands made far better business decisions that sustained their visibility. Styx has made very dodgy choices since about 1981, at least, and taken away a lot of its own momentum. For instance, Journey sold more than half of its total album sales AFTER the breakup in the post-RoR era. That's because they still had Herbie Herbert, and he owned a financial interest, which gave him incentive to go out and work with the catalogue, make sure radio was still playing it, make sure the record company was on top of it. He used the band's downtime to double its sales. Styx, by contrast, fired Derek Sutton, then went to Azoff - who had no personal connection to the band's success - and then broke up. Azoff had no reason to continue to work with the catalogue, and Sutton was no longer involved, so for that 7 year period there was nobody to go and get the label interested in the catalogue, either. That's why we got such a half-ass hits package with that cut-rate 'Classics' thing, and it's also why a lot of the abums that had sold 3-4 million copies weren't even in the store anymore, or at a reduced rate. And we all know the choices they've made with the catalogue since then. The Styx catalogue is now under-valued, but it's not because the band is less successful than other bands of that era. It's because Styx tends to make short-term, short-sighted business choices that end up blowing back in the band's face. Sad, but that's the way it has been with this band pretty consistently. They point a lot of fingers, but in the end I've always said most of the damage done to this band has been self-inflicted.

As far as Cheap Trick being "more respected" goes (and I know that's from another post), by whom? Critics don't like either band, and the public chose to honor Styx with far more success. So who exactly is it that respects Cheap Trick more? The handful of people who like to talk about whether a band "rocks" or not? As if that's a litmus test for quality. By that measure half of The Beatles' output is no good, so I question that standard.


Sterling

Great insight Sterling.

The band's business decisions have always been pathetic - maybe driven by personel issues? We've discussed the choice of singles ad nauseum in this forum, but there were some critical mistakes made in 1980, 1981, and 1983 (and even 1991) that cost the band at a minimum 3-4 more huge hit records and millions of album sales. In addition, we've discussed (as as DDY) how Kilroy didn't have a true rock song on it. Caught In the Act was extremely poorly promoted (probably because the band didn't exist in A&M's eyes). They ignored the catalog from 1984 on while Journey continued to plug theirs. They didn't sign an extension with A&M prior to the release of Edge, which gave A&M no incentive to promote it. They released the wrong song as the first single off Edge which flopped and cost them what little promotion they had behind the album in store. When SMTW finally "hit" all promotion for the album was dead. They put together a lame greatest hits package (classics) which undercut the true greatest hits package when it finally came out in 1995 (it wasn't special and classics had sold a million copies - with essentially the same songs minus SMTW and Lady '95). They and their management undersold the 1996 reunion tour - it had good promotion, but it could have had great promotion. Today, they have now toured themselves to death so that seeing Styx is no longer special - in fact just wait a few months and they'll be at your local county fare or wait for the summer and they'll be teamed up with 3 other bands in a nostalgic tour. Or you can catch Dennis. They ignored most opportunities to go "commercial" - getting their songs in movies, ads, tv shows, etc. - yes you may say it is a sell out, but it keeps bands viable and top of mind.

In short, their business acumen is unbelievably weak. How can a band that was the biggest band in the USA in 1980-81 sink so far?

[bugsymalone]

I haven't looked at album sales to compare but I very much doubt it. As far as hit singles, ticket sales and continued visibility, it's Styx by an enormous landslide. Cheap Trick really had a few hit singles, and far between, and when they tour on bigger bills they are the opening act, straight up. You can't begin to reasonably compare the bands in terms of $$$$ or numbers. Styx has done WAY more total business.

I'll point this out again: in that moment, Styx was every bit as big as Aerosmith, Journey, anyone else. It sold as many records in that moment, and at one point it outsold them ALL in concert tickets. That's why the band is sustaining as well as it is. Where Journey, Aerosmith and others like that overtook Styx was AFTER the fact, when those bands made far better business decisions that sustained their visibility. Styx has made very dodgy choices since about 1981, at least, and taken away a lot of its own momentum. For instance, Journey sold more than half of its total album sales AFTER the breakup in the post-RoR era. That's because they still had Herbie Herbert, and he owned a financial interest, which gave him incentive to go out and work with the catalogue, make sure radio was still playing it, make sure the record company was on top of it. He used the band's downtime to double its sales. Styx, by contrast, fired Derek Sutton, then went to Azoff - who had no personal connection to the band's success - and then broke up. Azoff had no reason to continue to work with the catalogue, and Sutton was no longer involved, so for that 7 year period there was nobody to go and get the label interested in the catalogue, either. That's why we got such a half-ass hits package with that cut-rate 'Classics' thing, and it's also why a lot of the abums that had sold 3-4 million copies weren't even in the store anymore, or at a reduced rate. And we all know the choices they've made with the catalogue since then. The Styx catalogue is now under-valued, but it's not because the band is less successful than other bands of that era. It's because Styx tends to make short-term, short-sighted business choices that end up blowing back in the band's face. Sad, but that's the way it has been with this band pretty consistently. They point a lot of fingers, but in the end I've always said most of the damage done to this band has been self-inflicted.

As far as Cheap Trick being "more respected" goes (and I know that's from another post), by whom? Critics don't like either band, and the public chose to honor Styx with far more success. So who exactly is it that respects Cheap Trick more? The handful of people who like to talk about whether a band "rocks" or not? As if that's a litmus test for quality. By that measure half of The Beatles' output is no good, so I question that standard.


Sterling

Unquestionably, Styx blew it in many ways. Sadly, not kissing up to the "right" people set in stone the lack of respect from the music press, which would have helped with their "cool" factor and earned them a better place in rock history, IMO. I love that they did not, but I see how it has hurt them in the long run.

There are bands that were denigrated when they were popular, who have, for various reasons, achieved some respectability down the road. I think of Queen, Journey and Cheap Trick as examples.

I made the comment about CT being more respected because I see how their music is treated in various formats. Styx was and is far more popular as a touring act, but I see and hear more cynicism directed at them and their music legacy than CT ever has or will have. Maybe it is a "handful" of people, but that is better than the no-respect Styx gets. It all adds up and becomes the norm rather than the exception.

Bugsy

[Rockwriter]

Styx is not Cheap Trick. As Sterling said, bands who have had some sort of major success on the scale of Styx, Kiss, Aerosmith, etc., really are not about losing money or giving away product. Cheap Trick never had the same success as Styx, Kiss, Rush, etc. Cheap Trick has basically been independent since the 90s give or take.

If Styx does not want to release an album, so be it. Based on the past few new songs, no big loss.

I don't know if you are going to compare Styx's sucess with Aerosmith's, then comparing Styx to Cheap Trick seems to be right in line quite honest. I am going out on a limb and say that world wide, Cheap Trick is more popular than Styx.

I haven't looked at album sales to compare but I very much doubt it. As far as hit singles, ticket sales and continued visibility, it's Styx by an enormous landslide. Cheap Trick really had a few hit singles, and far between, and when they tour on bigger bills they are the opening act, straight up. You can't begin to reasonably compare the bands in terms of $$$$ or numbers. Styx has done WAY more total business.

I'll point this out again: in that moment, Styx was every bit as big as Aerosmith, Journey, anyone else. It sold as many records in that moment, and at one point it outsold them ALL in concert tickets. That's why the band is sustaining as well as it is. Where Journey, Aerosmith and others like that overtook Styx was AFTER the fact, when those bands made far better business decisions that sustained their visibility. Styx has made very dodgy choices since about 1981, at least, and taken away a lot of its own momentum. For instance, Journey sold more than half of its total album sales AFTER the breakup in the post-RoR era. That's because they still had Herbie Herbert, and he owned a financial interest, which gave him incentive to go out and work with the catalogue, make sure radio was still playing it, make sure the record company was on top of it. He used the band's downtime to double its sales. Styx, by contrast, fired Derek Sutton, then went to Azoff - who had no personal connection to the band's success - and then broke up. Azoff had no reason to continue to work with the catalogue, and Sutton was no longer involved, so for that 7 year period there was nobody to go and get the label interested in the catalogue, either. That's why we got such a half-ass hits package with that cut-rate 'Classics' thing, and it's also why a lot of the abums that had sold 3-4 million copies weren't even in the store anymore, or at a reduced rate. And we all know the choices they've made with the catalogue since then. The Styx catalogue is now under-valued, but it's not because the band is less successful than other bands of that era. It's because Styx tends to make short-term, short-sighted business choices that end up blowing back in the band's face. Sad, but that's the way it has been with this band pretty consistently. They point a lot of fingers, but in the end I've always said most of the damage done to this band has been self-inflicted.

As far as Cheap Trick being "more respected" goes (and I know that's from another post), by whom? Critics don't like either band, and the public chose to honor Styx with far more success. So who exactly is it that respects Cheap Trick more? The handful of people who like to talk about whether a band "rocks" or not? As if that's a litmus test for quality. By that measure half of The Beatles' output is no good, so I question that standard.


Sterling

Great insight Sterling.

The band's business decisions have always been pathetic - maybe driven by personel issues? We've discussed the choice of singles ad nauseum in this forum, but there were some critical mistakes made in 1980, 1981, and 1983 (and even 1991) that cost the band at a minimum 3-4 more huge hit records and millions of album sales. In addition, we've discussed (as as DDY) how Kilroy didn't have a true rock song on it. Caught In the Act was extremely poorly promoted (probably because the band didn't exist in A&M's eyes). They ignored the catalog from 1984 on while Journey continued to plug theirs. They didn't sign an extension with A&M prior to the release of Edge, which gave A&M no incentive to promote it. They released the wrong song as the first single off Edge which flopped and cost them what little promotion they had behind the album in store. When SMTW finally "hit" all promotion for the album was dead. They put together a lame greatest hits package (classics) which undercut the true greatest hits package when it finally came out in 1995 (it wasn't special and classics had sold a million copies - with essentially the same songs minus SMTW and Lady '95). They and their management undersold the 1996 reunion tour - it had good promotion, but it could have had great promotion. Today, they have now toured themselves to death so that seeing Styx is no longer special - in fact just wait a few months and they'll be at your local county fare or wait for the summer and they'll be teamed up with 3 other bands in a nostalgic tour. Or you can catch Dennis. They ignored most opportunities to go "commercial" - getting their songs in movies, ads, tv shows, etc. - yes you may say it is a sell out, but it keeps bands viable and top of mind.

In short, their business acumen is unbelievably weak. How can a band that was the biggest band in the USA in 1980-81 sink so far?

Actually I don't agree that the RTP tour was less successful than it could have been. It did HUGE numbers, comparable to the best business the band has ever done. But look at the disaster that was 'Brave New World' and the ensuing tour that featured an entirely different band than the one that was on the record, which had been billed as a "classic reunion" record. Talk about losing momentum, wow. I know they felt they had to do that and I'm in no position to argue what they should and should not do for their own happiness as a band, but there's no getting around how badly that split the fan base they had only just reunited, and there's no getting around the fallout from it. And then there's the covers record, which I felt was a terrible mistake from the very first time I heard it. It's not bad, but why does it exist? Did it move the band forward? I don't think it did. I also can't get over the fact that they have ignored the 30th Anniversaries of TGI and PO8 completely. That's a big opportunity to have missed as well.

Having said that, I am not knocking the band, because Styx is still doing very well. That band is a great live act, and it hauls in a ton of money every year. It's just not as much as it COULD have been, that's the point I am trying to make. But they're still very, very lucky to be in the position they are in. There's an awful lot of bands from that era that wish they were doing as well as Styx is.


Sterling

[Rockwriter]

I haven't looked at album sales to compare but I very much doubt it. As far as hit singles, ticket sales and continued visibility, it's Styx by an enormous landslide. Cheap Trick really had a few hit singles, and far between, and when they tour on bigger bills they are the opening act, straight up. You can't begin to reasonably compare the bands in terms of $$$$ or numbers. Styx has done WAY more total business.

I'll point this out again: in that moment, Styx was every bit as big as Aerosmith, Journey, anyone else. It sold as many records in that moment, and at one point it outsold them ALL in concert tickets. That's why the band is sustaining as well as it is. Where Journey, Aerosmith and others like that overtook Styx was AFTER the fact, when those bands made far better business decisions that sustained their visibility. Styx has made very dodgy choices since about 1981, at least, and taken away a lot of its own momentum. For instance, Journey sold more than half of its total album sales AFTER the breakup in the post-RoR era. That's because they still had Herbie Herbert, and he owned a financial interest, which gave him incentive to go out and work with the catalogue, make sure radio was still playing it, make sure the record company was on top of it. He used the band's downtime to double its sales. Styx, by contrast, fired Derek Sutton, then went to Azoff - who had no personal connection to the band's success - and then broke up. Azoff had no reason to continue to work with the catalogue, and Sutton was no longer involved, so for that 7 year period there was nobody to go and get the label interested in the catalogue, either. That's why we got such a half-ass hits package with that cut-rate 'Classics' thing, and it's also why a lot of the abums that had sold 3-4 million copies weren't even in the store anymore, or at a reduced rate. And we all know the choices they've made with the catalogue since then. The Styx catalogue is now under-valued, but it's not because the band is less successful than other bands of that era. It's because Styx tends to make short-term, short-sighted business choices that end up blowing back in the band's face. Sad, but that's the way it has been with this band pretty consistently. They point a lot of fingers, but in the end I've always said most of the damage done to this band has been self-inflicted.

As far as Cheap Trick being "more respected" goes (and I know that's from another post), by whom? Critics don't like either band, and the public chose to honor Styx with far more success. So who exactly is it that respects Cheap Trick more? The handful of people who like to talk about whether a band "rocks" or not? As if that's a litmus test for quality. By that measure half of The Beatles' output is no good, so I question that standard.


Sterling

Unquestionably, Styx blew it in many ways. Sadly, not kissing up to the "right" people set in stone the lack of respect from the music press, which would have helped with their "cool" factor and earned them a better place in rock history, IMO. I love that they did not, but I see how it has hurt them in the long run.

There are bands that were denigrated when they were popular, who have, for various reasons, achieved some respectability down the road. I think of Queen, Journey and Cheap Trick as examples.

I made the comment about CT being more respected because I see how their music is treated in various formats. Styx was and is far more popular as a touring act, but I see and hear more cynicism directed at them and their music legacy than CT ever has or will have. Maybe it is a "handful" of people, but that is better than the no-respect Styx gets. It all adds up and becomes the norm rather than the exception.

Bugsy

Maybe so, who knows? I don't think Styx cares at this point. The critics only re-arranged their position on Queen because - like Led Zep and The Eagles - they became so popular over time that they had no choice, or they would look too folish. Kinda like Genesis now, they put them in the Hall and now they are trying to pretend as if they liked them all along, which we all know is bullshit because THE PROOF IS STILL AROUND, YOU ROLLING STONE MORONS! LOL. That drives me nuts.

Journey I respectfully disagree with; I think they get about as much real respect as Styx, especially since their revolving door of singers. But they are doing way better than Styx commercially now, there is no getting around it. Of course, they chose a sound-alike and they still play their biggest hits in concert, and that makes a big difference, in my opinion. When you stop playing a majority of your own hits and then go around and publicly denigrate them, I kinda doubt it helps people muster up more respect, y'know what I mean?

But as I said, that's not to insult Styx, because the band as it is, is very good at what it does. It is lucky to be doing as well as it is.


Sterling

[bugsymalone]

... And then there's the covers record, which I felt was a terrible mistake from the very first time I heard it. It's not bad, but why does it exist? Did it move the band forward? I don't think it did. I also can't get over the fact that they have ignored the 30th Anniversaries of TGI and PO8 completely. That's a big opportunity to have missed as well.




Sterling

This ^ !!


Bugsy

[chickenbeef]

I disagree with this. How much would it cost to write a song, play it live and record it, and put it on ITunes for download? Doesn't seem like it would cost much at all to me.

Writing a song is time. Sure, a live version could be recorded for some format.

The thing boils down to distribution. I don't do downloads, and certainly wouldn't buy a lossy product. I don't have iTunes installed and won't do it just for one track. Most people today want music for free. I want a physical CD at 44.1/16, no MP3, etc. A lot of the older folks (the core audience for Styx) may not be technologically aware or good at it, so doing download only doesn't make sense.

I just don't see them doing a piecemeal offering. Styx seems like a go big or go home kind of band.

Doesn't seem to be stopping Cheap Trick, they are still pumping out new material. I think it is time for Styx to at least try playing an album in concert, like "Grand Illusion" from start to finish, I think this would be a cool way to keep things fresh. Or is singing 'Superstars" out of their vocal range now? I really love the concept of playing full albums in concert.

Grand Illusion will be played in its entirety and so will P08 for a tour this fall

[Everett]

I disagree with this. How much would it cost to write a song, play it live and record it, and put it on ITunes for download? Doesn't seem like it would cost much at all to me.

Writing a song is time. Sure, a live version could be recorded for some format.

The thing boils down to distribution. I don't do downloads, and certainly wouldn't buy a lossy product. I don't have iTunes installed and won't do it just for one track. Most people today want music for free. I want a physical CD at 44.1/16, no MP3, etc. A lot of the older folks (the core audience for Styx) may not be technologically aware or good at it, so doing download only doesn't make sense.

I just don't see them doing a piecemeal offering. Styx seems like a go big or go home kind of band.

Doesn't seem to be stopping Cheap Trick, they are still pumping out new material. I think it is time for Styx to at least try playing an album in concert, like "Grand Illusion" from start to finish, I think this would be a cool way to keep things fresh. Or is singing 'Superstars" out of their vocal range now? I really love the concept of playing full albums in concert.

Grand Illusion will be played in its entirety and so will P08 for a tour this fall

you sound as bad as froy

[kansas666]

Wow, this is some unusually good discussion (except for the random comment thrown in by Froy).

I would like to point out that back in the day when the record companies ruled, bands toured to promote their latest album. Quite often the tours lost money, but this was made up for by the fact that they sold a few million records.

Today, especially for nostalgia acts, there is no money to be made in releasing an album.

The money to be made is in touring.

Look at the merger between Ticketmaster and Live Nation. They're not fools, although I do think they are the devil.

Sure STYX could self release and album for not a lot of money. But as a commercial endeavor what's the point? Like they said, they would be basically giving it away. The majority of their fans don't want to hear it, and those that do would most likely steal it.

Some bands still release albums in the naive belief that it makes them relevant.

Rush is aware that the album format is dead and they are recording a couple of songs that they will perform on their upcoming tour. I'm not sure it's a viable move, but I guess it keeps them "relevant".


Some bands do it because they never had the blockbuster to compare it to.

Cheap Trick is a good example. Their biggest album was Dream Police. They never had the peak that STYX had. They didn't have the valley either. They have steadfastly released new music throughout their career. I have bought a number of their recent releases and they are surprisingly good. They gave up on the record companies a few years ago and have been self releasing their material mostly via the internet. I doubt if it makes them much money. But it sure makes going to their concerts fun for me.

Bands are searching for ways to market new music. One method that has had some success is DVD, primarily because it is more difficult to copy. That is why we are seeing a lot of concerts released on DVD along with a companion CD of new material. But in the long run, DVD's never had the market saturation of CD's or vinyl.

[chowhall]

Cheap Trick is a good example. Their biggest album was Dream Police. They never had the peak that STYX had. They didn't have the valley either. They have steadfastly released new music throughout their career. I have bought a number of their recent releases and they are surprisingly good. They gave up on the record companies a few years ago and have been self releasing their material mostly via the internet. I doubt if it makes them much money. But it sure makes going to their concerts fun for me.
.

How many of the "new" songs do they play? I haven't seen Cheap Trick in a very long time and always enjoyed them when I did. I especially liked their Beatles covers. I haven't followed them closely and I would probably head for the beer line when a new song was played. I'm all for 2 or maybe 3 new songs from "classic" bands but that's about it. Since I've heard the classic Styx songs so many times, I would want to hear the new music, but I think the majority of concert goers want to hear the hits. Since I haven't seen Cheap Trick in over 10 years, I would want the hits. Since I see Styx at least once a year I would want the different songs.

[chickenbeef]

I disagree with this. How much would it cost to write a song, play it live and record it, and put it on ITunes for download? Doesn't seem like it would cost much at all to me.

Writing a song is time. Sure, a live version could be recorded for some format.

The thing boils down to distribution. I don't do downloads, and certainly wouldn't buy a lossy product. I don't have iTunes installed and won't do it just for one track. Most people today want music for free. I want a physical CD at 44.1/16, no MP3, etc. A lot of the older folks (the core audience for Styx) may not be technologically aware or good at it, so doing download only doesn't make sense.

I just don't see them doing a piecemeal offering. Styx seems like a go big or go home kind of band.

Doesn't seem to be stopping Cheap Trick, they are still pumping out new material. I think it is time for Styx to at least try playing an album in concert, like "Grand Illusion" from start to finish, I think this would be a cool way to keep things fresh. Or is singing 'Superstars" out of their vocal range now? I really love the concept of playing full albums in concert.

Grand Illusion will be played in its entirety and so will P08 for a tour this fall

you sound as bad as froy

all right there buddy. let the records show what I have stated about a GI and P08 tour in the fall. when it does happen you all must admit I know everything and never question what I say again.

[Everett]

Grand Illusion will be played in its entirety and so will P08 for a tour this fall[/quote]

you sound as bad as froy [/quote]

all right there buddy. let the records show what I have stated about a GI and P08 tour in the fall. when it does happen you all must admit I know everything and never question what I say again.[/quote]

As the old saying goes "I'll believe it when i see it"

[chickenbeef]

Grand Illusion will be played in its entirety and so will P08 for a tour this fall

you sound as bad as froy [/quote]

all right there buddy. let the records show what I have stated about a GI and P08 tour in the fall. when it does happen you all must admit I know everything and never question what I say again.[/quote]

As the old saying goes "I'll believe it when i see it"[/quote]

everyone remember this, it will go down in history on how I am better than all of you

[Monker]

I disagree with this. How much would it cost to write a song, play it live and record it, and put it on ITunes for download? Doesn't seem like it would cost much at all to me.

Writing a song is time. Sure, a live version could be recorded for some format.

The thing boils down to distribution. I don't do downloads, and certainly wouldn't buy a lossy product. I don't have iTunes installed and won't do it just for one track. Most people today want music for free. I want a physical CD at 44.1/16, no MP3, etc. A lot of the older folks (the core audience for Styx) may not be technologically aware or good at it, so doing download only doesn't make sense.

I just don't see them doing a piecemeal offering. Styx seems like a go big or go home kind of band.

The post I was replying to was saying it all boils down to somebody willing to put down the money to make it happen.

Now, YOU say it's all about 'distribution'. ITunes IS distribution. No worries about recording CD's or getting them to retail....it's already there there for download.

If you don't do downloads and ONLY want CD's...then, frankly, you are irrelevant to this economy and how music truly is distributed nowadays. It is WAY more convenient to download off of ITunes nowadays then to go to retail and search for a CD.

I also do not see it as 'piecemeal'. If they (actually, ANYBODY) want to record and release new music - there is a way. It even offers a way to get new music into the set...which people in this forum have been bitching about for years. so, I see it as a possible solution to a lot of the complaints people have.

[Monker]

I haven't looked at album sales to compare but I very much doubt it. As far as hit singles, ticket sales and continued visibility, it's Styx by an enormous landslide. Cheap Trick really had a few hit singles, and far between, and when they tour on bigger bills they are the opening act, straight up. You can't begin to reasonably compare the bands in terms of $$$$ or numbers. Styx has done WAY more total business.

How much of the above is your bias towards American sales and how much is actual fact about WORLD WIDE sales, as was mentioned? I would love to see the WORLDWIDE sales, just to compare. I remember reading somewhere that Cheap Trick never lost their popularity in Japan and kept selling throughout the 90's...don't know about the rest of the world, but it would be interesting to find out.

[Everett]

Grand Illusion will be played in its entirety and so will P08 for a tour this fall

you sound as bad as froy

all right there buddy. let the records show what I have stated about a GI and P08 tour in the fall. when it does happen you all must admit I know everything and never question what I say again.[/quote]

As the old saying goes "I'll believe it when i see it"[/quote]

everyone remember this, it will go down in history on how I am better than all of you[/quote]

whatever cm punk

[blt man]

There are 3 new youtube vids of Dennis and his crew going accoustic. Best of Times, part of renegade and part of fooling yourself.

[StyxCollector]

The post I was replying to was saying it all boils down to somebody willing to put down the money to make it happen.

Online distribution or not, someone's got to pay for it. Everyone thinks they can do a good recording in their bedroom. They can't. Good equipment can still make terrible recordings if you don't know what you're doing. For a band like Styx, recording is a production from beginning to end. It also means time off the road, etc. Styx is all about the road at the moment.

Now, YOU say it's all about 'distribution'. ITunes IS distribution. No worries about recording CD's or getting them to retail....it's already there there for download.

If you don't do downloads and ONLY want CD's...then, frankly, you are irrelevant to this economy and how music truly is distributed nowadays. It is WAY more convenient to download off of ITunes nowadays then to go to retail and search for a CD.

I also do not see it as 'piecemeal'. If they (actually, ANYBODY) want to record and release new music - there is a way. It even offers a way to get new music into the set...which people in this forum have been bitching about for years. so, I see it as a possible solution to a lot of the complaints people have.

I never said iTunes isn't distribution, but it's only one form of distribution. Retail is pretty much dead for CDs - that I agree. Even used stores are pretty much pathetic or gone in the USA. Japan is the last vestage of good record shopping left, and it's not as good as it was even 4 years ago.

I will actively support downloads when they are lossless and not only for Apple. If you are OK with MP3 or lossy MP3, good for you. I don't like the loss of fidelity. There is room for physical and online formats. Many bands do it. As a musician myself I get it, but I would never ONLY offer a lossy version. That says I don't give a shit about quality and neither does my deaf audience lol

The only people complaining about a lack of new Styx music are the few I've seen here. Whenever I've seen Styx or Dennis since 1999, I NEVER hear anyone asking for or talking about new tunes. The only people who really care are longtime fans, and that's not where they are making the money. Most of us don't see them enough. They're touring on the strength of the catalog and the people's memories.

[StyxCollector]

I made the comment about CT being more respected because I see how their music is treated in various formats.

CT has had more of its back catalog treated better, but let's face it, Polygram and then Universal are/were not Columbia/Sony. Legacy quite frankly is/was a great part of their reissues. Even if you didn't like the sound, they treat their artists' back catalogs with much more respect. They did halt the CT reissue campaign, but I would agree that they had the box set with rarities, the individual reissues/remasters that were released with period b-sides, etc.

Styx? Endless hits packages with a handful of things for the fans (i.e. the longer MITW, the WN 2 CD set with Unfinished Song). The closest we've come are the upcoming gold CD by Audio Fidelity and the Japanese SHM CDs which are worth it even if you're getting 'em just for the packaging.

At this point because of the dwindling support for physical media, they really blew it. The right time for Styx remasters was when they announced them in 1995 and they should have been out by the RTP tour. Instead, nada. Even if there was enough rare stuff around (and there are a few things, especially demos), the momentum is gone. The effort won't make up for how much it will sell. Styx just isn't that popular worldwide, let alone in America, to move that much back catalog these days.

[StyxCollector]

How much of the above is your bias towards American sales and how much is actual fact about WORLD WIDE sales, as was mentioned? I would love to see the WORLDWIDE sales, just to compare. I remember reading somewhere that Cheap Trick never lost their popularity in Japan and kept selling throughout the 90's...don't know about the rest of the world, but it would be interesting to find out.

CT is more popular worldwide as a recording artist, no question. To put it in perspective - CT's stuff in Japan has been reissued quite a few times, where Styx had NO new album reissues of the A&M years in 16 years. The SHMs released last year were the first time they were technically in print (although you could find a few) since 1993. In the rest of the world, they generally import the USA CDs. Again, what does that tell you?

As a live band, Styx is doing much better at the moment. CT is just an opening act for most people right now. So there's a gulf between asses in seats and product.

[StyxCollector]

Where Journey, Aerosmith and others like that overtook Styx was AFTER the fact, when those bands made far better business decisions that sustained their visibility. Styx has made very dodgy choices since about 1981, at least, and taken away a lot of its own momentum. For instance, Journey sold more than half of its total album sales AFTER the breakup in the post-RoR era. That's because they still had Herbie Herbert, and he owned a financial interest, which gave him incentive to go out and work with the catalogue, make sure radio was still playing it, make sure the record company was on top of it. He used the band's downtime to double its sales. Styx, by contrast, fired Derek Sutton, then went to Azoff - who had no personal connection to the band's success - and then broke up. Azoff had no reason to continue to work with the catalogue, and Sutton was no longer involved, so for that 7 year period there was nobody to go and get the label interested in the catalogue, either. That's why we got such a half-ass hits package with that cut-rate 'Classics' thing, and it's also why a lot of the abums that had sold 3-4 million copies weren't even in the store anymore, or at a reduced rate. And we all know the choices they've made with the catalogue since then. The Styx catalogue is now under-valued, but it's not because the band is less successful than other bands of that era. It's because Styx tends to make short-term, short-sighted business choices that end up blowing back in the band's face. Sad, but that's the way it has been with this band pretty consistently. They point a lot of fingers, but in the end I've always said most of the damage done to this band has been self-inflicted.

Pretty spot on if you ask me. Classics was driven by the record company. Dennis is on the record as not liking it in one of my interviews. While the '95 hits package sold tons and still does, imagine how much more it would have sold without Classics out there. The Journey comparison with Herbie is one of the best I've seen - Herbie sold the shit out of Journey and made everyone money (even Steve Perry who you can tell from HH's interviews there is no love lost there).

[Since 78]

Styx is not Cheap Trick. As Sterling said, bands who have had some sort of major success on the scale of Styx, Kiss, Aerosmith, etc., really are not about losing money or giving away product. Cheap Trick never had the same success as Styx, Kiss, Rush, etc. Cheap Trick has basically been independent since the 90s give or take.

If Styx does not want to release an album, so be it. Based on the past few new songs, no big loss.

I don't know if you are going to compare Styx's sucess with Aerosmith's, then comparing Styx to Cheap Trick seems to be right in line quite honest. I am going out on a limb and say that world wide, Cheap Trick is more popular than Styx.

I haven't looked at album sales to compare but I very much doubt it. As far as hit singles, ticket sales and continued visibility, it's Styx by an enormous landslide. Cheap Trick really had a few hit singles, and far between, and when they tour on bigger bills they are the opening act, straight up. You can't begin to reasonably compare the bands in terms of $$$$ or numbers. Styx has done WAY more total business.

I'll point this out again: in that moment, Styx was every bit as big as Aerosmith, Journey, anyone else. It sold as many records in that moment, and at one point it outsold them ALL in concert tickets. That's why the band is sustaining as well as it is. Where Journey, Aerosmith and others like that overtook Styx was AFTER the fact, when those bands made far better business decisions that sustained their visibility. Styx has made very dodgy choices since about 1981, at least, and taken away a lot of its own momentum. For instance, Journey sold more than half of its total album sales AFTER the breakup in the post-RoR era. That's because they still had Herbie Herbert, and he owned a financial interest, which gave him incentive to go out and work with the catalogue, make sure radio was still playing it, make sure the record company was on top of it. He used the band's downtime to double its sales. Styx, by contrast, fired Derek Sutton, then went to Azoff - who had no personal connection to the band's success - and then broke up. Azoff had no reason to continue to work with the catalogue, and Sutton was no longer involved, so for that 7 year period there was nobody to go and get the label interested in the catalogue, either. That's why we got such a half-ass hits package with that cut-rate 'Classics' thing, and it's also why a lot of the abums that had sold 3-4 million copies weren't even in the store anymore, or at a reduced rate. And we all know the choices they've made with the catalogue since then. The Styx catalogue is now under-valued, but it's not because the band is less successful than other bands of that era. It's because Styx tends to make short-term, short-sighted business choices that end up blowing back in the band's face. Sad, but that's the way it has been with this band pretty consistently. They point a lot of fingers, but in the end I've always said most of the damage done to this band has been self-inflicted.

As far as Cheap Trick being "more respected" goes (and I know that's from another post), by whom? Critics don't like either band, and the public chose to honor Styx with far more success. So who exactly is it that respects Cheap Trick more? The handful of people who like to talk about whether a band "rocks" or not? As if that's a litmus test for quality. By that measure half of The Beatles' output is no good, so I question that standard.


Sterling

[kansas666]

I just don't see them doing a piecemeal offering. Styx seems like a go big or go home kind of band.

What do you call Just Be and Everything All the Time?

[chickenbeef]

I just don't see them doing a piecemeal offering. Styx seems like a go big or go home kind of band.

What do you call Just Be and Everything All the Time?

two great songs, "just be" wow pink floyd material right there

[pinkfloyd1973]

I just don't see them doing a piecemeal offering. Styx seems like a go big or go home kind of band.

What do you call Just Be and Everything All the Time?

two great songs, "just be" wow pink floyd material right there

"Just Be" does have a PF vibe to it, but i'm just not wild about it........it'll never be DSOTM or "The Wall"


Robin

[chickenbeef]

I just don't see them doing a piecemeal offering. Styx seems like a go big or go home kind of band.

What do you call Just Be and Everything All the Time?

two great songs, "just be" wow pink floyd material right there

"Just Be" does have a PF vibe to it, but i'm just not wild about it........it'll never be DSOTM or "The Wall"


Robin

if that song had been released on an album you guys actually like as in Gi, P08, or Ct, or god forbid KWH(which sounds like a monkey being sodomized by a robot) you'd all be going on about how great it is