Why did Styx erase Dennis from it's history?

[froy]

"Monker"

No. DDY fans such as yourself should realize that in the end DDY did not work as part of a team,

Did Tommy work as part of a team when he was snorting coke in 84?
Was that a team effort? He is lucky he was not thrown out on his hick ass never to be let back in.

but as a dictator impressing his ideas on the others who either had to walk away from Styx, or go along with the direction DDY set.

They all followed the leader (Dennis) when things were going great and money was flying in I/E Paradise theater tour.
When Dennis gets sick and needs a few months to get healthy they spit on him and said see ya.
Great team there,

Froy, you are so biased on the DeYoung side of the fence, you may as well be his conjoined twin.

I really don't care what you think, or what you post any longer...it's been the same garbage for 12 years.

You bet your ass Monker Im right and your wrong just about every damn time.
You have been making shit up for 12 years that's why Im here to point out your senseless babble.
I love it when you have no answers to my posts.

[Babyblue]

"Monker"

No. DDY fans such as yourself should realize that in the end DDY did not work as part of a team,

Did Tommy work as part of a team when he was snorting coke in 84?
Was that a team effort? He is lucky he was not thrown out on his hick ass never to be let back in.

but as a dictator impressing his ideas on the others who either had to walk away from Styx, or go along with the direction DDY set.

They all followed the leader (Dennis) when things were going great and money was flying in I/E Paradise theater tour.
When Dennis gets sick and needs a few months to get healthy they spit on him and said see ya.
Great team there,

Froy, you are so biased on the DeYoung side of the fence, you may as well be his conjoined twin.

I really don't care what you think, or what you post any longer...it's been the same garbage for 12 years.

That is so very true

[Archetype]

I wonder if Tommy/JY ever think to themselves that they'd pretty much be nowhere if it weren't for Dennis DeYoung. While I enjoy and support the Lawrence Gowan lineup of Styx, they should be a little bit more grateful to Dennis for their success. Gowan shows the most class about it. He respects DeYoung.

[Babyblue]

I wonder if Tommy/JY ever think to themselves that they'd pretty much be nowhere if it weren't for Dennis DeYoung. While I enjoy and support the Lawrence Gowan lineup of Styx, they should be a little bit more grateful to Dennis for their success. Gowan shows the most class about it. He respects DeYoung.

That he does

[Toph]

"Monker"

No. DDY fans such as yourself should realize that in the end DDY did not work as part of a team,

Did Tommy work as part of a team when he was snorting coke in 84?
Was that a team effort? He is lucky he was not thrown out on his hick ass never to be let back in.

but as a dictator impressing his ideas on the others who either had to walk away from Styx, or go along with the direction DDY set.

They all followed the leader (Dennis) when things were going great and money was flying in I/E Paradise theater tour.
When Dennis gets sick and needs a few months to get healthy they spit on him and said see ya.
Great team there,

Froy, you are so biased on the DeYoung side of the fence, you may as well be his conjoined twin.

I really don't care what you think, or what you post any longer...it's been the same garbage for 12 years.

You bet your ass Monker Im right and your wrong just about every damn time.
You have been making shit up for 12 years that's why Im here to point out your senseless babble.
I love it when you have no answers to my posts.

Monker makes no sense and is full of it. He clearl y has an agenda.

[froy]

I wonder if Tommy/JY ever think to themselves that they'd pretty much be nowhere if it weren't for Dennis DeYoung. While I enjoy and support the Lawrence Gowan lineup of Styx, they should be a little bit more grateful to Dennis for their success. Gowan shows the most class about it. He respects DeYoung.

That he does

Gowan is a pig..

[pinkfloyd1973]

I really don't care what you think, or what you post any longer...it's been the same garbage for 12 years.

Pot, meet kettle

[Boomchild]

I don't think anybody should feel sorry for any of them. I also think most reasonable people would choose making hundreds of thousands/yr over an uncertain future...which was the choice when the fired Dennis. It obviously became a bit easier when that amount of money was not involved and they could still make a living on the road without him.

Right, then they shouldn't spin the story as if they were held captive by DDY.

No. DDY fans such as yourself should realize that in the end DDY did not work as part of a team, but as a dictator impressing his ideas on the others who either had to walk away from Styx, or go along with the direction DDY set. It is unreasonable to expect the band to walk away from Styx, or fire DDY, when their entire career hinged on Styx' success. DDY was the inflexible one after PT, not the rest of the band.

It is DDY fans like yourself who should stop spinning the tall tale that all they had to do was fire DDY earlier.

There were other options the other members had then just firing him. If they each had equal voting power then just by out voting his ideas and direction they could go with what ever other ideas or direction they felt was best. It's more likely that at those times they for some reason did not have ideas or felt their ideas would not be as successful as DDY's. It appears more that DDY was a leader then a dictator. Even JY admits that DDY has natural leadership capabilities. They let DDY's ideas and direction go forward and then want to bitch and moan about it after the fact when in reality it was their own choice. If DDY was not a team player and Styx was all about him and him only then how do you explain his choice not to move forward with the band when TS walked in '84? The other so called "team players" wanted to find a replacement for TS and move on.

[Boomchild]

I wonder if Tommy/JY ever think to themselves that they'd pretty much be nowhere if it weren't for Dennis DeYoung. While I enjoy and support the Lawrence Gowan lineup of Styx, they should be a little bit more grateful to Dennis for their success. Gowan shows the most class about it. He respects DeYoung.

Nope. JY is too much in love with his own ego to have time for that and Tommy is to busy thinking up ways to record yet other version of a song that he wrote 10+ years ago.

[Monker]

Monker makes no sense and is full of it. He clearl y has an agenda.

And, you are just a troll who gets off on exaggerating your "points" beyond any common sense. All you do is just try to trigger reactions from people. And, that is even worse then what froyline does.

[Monker]

There were other options the other members had then just firing him.

Oh, please, how many times can they warn him that he was going too far? How many times do they have to put up with his control issues? How many is too many before they fire him? If they were sick of working with him, then they should just get rid of him...and that is where I think Tommy, JY and even Chuck were. They had enough and did what they felt was best.

If they each had equal voting power then just by out voting his ideas and direction they could go with what ever other ideas or direction they felt was best.

You are still not seeing that there is this thing called a label that wanted hit singles. Everybody has to admit that the label put pressure on Dennis, and therefore Styx as a whole, to continue the hits...especially after Babe. They couldn't simply vote down Dennis when the LABEL wanted him to continue with the hits he was writing.

It's more likely that at those times they for some reason did not have ideas

Geez, talk about making stuff up. Tommy's 'ideas' went on his first solo album...that's documented. I would suspect the same is true for JY. Whether you like it or not, they were pushed aside in favor of Kilroy.

or felt their ideas would not be as successful as DDY's.

I doubt that would be in the band members minds. It is more likely a worry of the label.

It appears more that DDY was a leader then a dictator.

Someone just posted here that even DDY said he regretted FORCING Kilroy on the band. That is a dictator...telling the band what to do and not listening to their input on the direction of the band. Every indication suggests that DDY had his ideas and got them done at the cost of upsetting the balance within the band...to the point of being fired - twice.

Even JY admits that DDY has natural leadership capabilities.

Most dictators do.

They let DDY's ideas and direction go forward and then want to bitch and moan about it after the fact when in reality it was their own choice.

So, you don't believe DDY when HE said he forced Kilroy onto the band? Was he lying? Was he exaggerating? Ok, I can understand you having your wacky conspiracy theories about JY and Tommy and why they would say what they do about DDY' wanting so much control, why they fired him, why the felt he would come back with a vengeance, why they were worrying about it during BNW. Sure, it's all just to make them look good, and DDY look bad. Poor Dennis DeYoung, he's just a victim, or whatever. But, when DDY says it HIMSELF, how do you excuse that?

If DDY was not a team player and Styx was all about him and him only then how do you explain his choice not to move forward with the band when TS walked in '84? The other so called "team players" wanted to find a replacement for TS and move on.

First of all, I said "maybe Tommy was more of a team player"...or whatever, I'm not going to go look for the exact quote. Point is, I didn't say that about all of them. Again, that was in response to somebody saying that JY should be angry at Tommy because of JY's status in the band....so keep it in context.

I also don't quite believe this story anyway. It would be more likely that they were just sick of each other (JY/Tommy vs. DDY) and Styx by that point. I know JY did some stuff for one of Tommy's solo albums. So, it's not like Tommy and JY hated each other and couldn't work together.

I think it's just as likely that Dennis simply wanted to put Styx to the side and do a few solo albums and this entire "we have to have Tommy in Styx" is just a second thought and is being made into something that it isn't. Maybe the rest of the band wanted to keep Styx and replace Tommy...and I wouldn't blame them if they did. But, at this point, I would expect Dennis to simply WANT to do something on his own, outside of Styx.

[Toph]

There were other options the other members had then just firing him.

Oh, please, how many times can they warn him that he was going too far? How many times do they have to put up with his control issues? How many is too many before they fire him? If they were sick of working with him, then they should just get rid of him...and that is where I think Tommy, JY and even Chuck were. They had enough and did what they felt was best.

If they each had equal voting power then just by out voting his ideas and direction they could go with what ever other ideas or direction they felt was best.

You are still not seeing that there is this thing called a label that wanted hit singles. Everybody has to admit that the label put pressure on Dennis, and therefore Styx as a whole, to continue the hits...especially after Babe. They couldn't simply vote down Dennis when the LABEL wanted him to continue with the hits he was writing.

It's more likely that at those times they for some reason did not have ideas

Geez, talk about making stuff up. Tommy's 'ideas' went on his first solo album...that's documented. I would suspect the same is true for JY. Whether you like it or not, they were pushed aside in favor of Kilroy.

or felt their ideas would not be as successful as DDY's.

I doubt that would be in the band members minds. It is more likely a worry of the label.

It appears more that DDY was a leader then a dictator.

Someone just posted here that even DDY said he regretted FORCING Kilroy on the band. That is a dictator...telling the band what to do and not listening to their input on the direction of the band. Every indication suggests that DDY had his ideas and got them done at the cost of upsetting the balance within the band...to the point of being fired - twice.

Even JY admits that DDY has natural leadership capabilities.

Most dictators do.

They let DDY's ideas and direction go forward and then want to bitch and moan about it after the fact when in reality it was their own choice.

So, you don't believe DDY when HE said he forced Kilroy onto the band? Was he lying? Was he exaggerating? Ok, I can understand you having your wacky conspiracy theories about JY and Tommy and why they would say what they do about DDY' wanting so much control, why they fired him, why the felt he would come back with a vengeance, why they were worrying about it during BNW. Sure, it's all just to make them look good, and DDY look bad. Poor Dennis DeYoung, he's just a victim, or whatever. But, when DDY says it HIMSELF, how do you excuse that?

If DDY was not a team player and Styx was all about him and him only then how do you explain his choice not to move forward with the band when TS walked in '84? The other so called "team players" wanted to find a replacement for TS and move on.

First of all, I said "maybe Tommy was more of a team player"...or whatever, I'm not going to go look for the exact quote. Point is, I didn't say that about all of them. Again, that was in response to somebody saying that JY should be angry at Tommy because of JY's status in the band....so keep it in context.

I also don't quite believe this story anyway. It would be more likely that they were just sick of each other (JY/Tommy vs. DDY) and Styx by that point. I know JY did some stuff for one of Tommy's solo albums. So, it's not like Tommy and JY hated each other and couldn't work together.

I think it's just as likely that Dennis simply wanted to put Styx to the side and do a few solo albums and this entire "we have to have Tommy in Styx" is just a second thought and is being made into something that it isn't. Maybe the rest of the band wanted to keep Styx and replace Tommy...and I wouldn't blame them if they did. But, at this point, I would expect Dennis to simply WANT to do something on his own, outside of Styx.

Monker you just make up facts to suit your opinions. JY joined Tommy on his 3rd solo album long after the ice had started to thaw. JY and Tommy had the worst relationship in 84. Read Sterling's book. Also, this falacy that Babe started the hit making side of Styx is just that - a fallacy. Styx had 8 top 40 hits prior to Babe and 8 afterward. don't you think they were a band that depended on the hit single from the start? Of course they did. They were a pop rock band. The operative word there is pop. They didn't hit it big initially until Lady went top 10. They didn't hit is for good until CSA hit top 10. This mistaken idea that Babe changed their focus into hit making is absolutely wrong. They were a hit making band from the start. They had to have the hit single. Stop making them out to be what they aren't.

[Boomchild]

Oh, please, how many times can they warn him that he was going too far? How many times do they have to put up with his control issues? How many is too many before they fire him? If they were sick of working with him, then they should just get rid of him...and that is where I think Tommy, JY and even Chuck were. They had enough and did what they felt was best.

All they had to do was out vote him and then they would be in control of the direction of the band. What would be the point of having the voting power set up that way if it was useless?

You are still not seeing that there is this thing called a label that wanted hit singles. Everybody has to admit that the label put pressure on Dennis, and therefore Styx as a whole, to continue the hits...especially after Babe. They couldn't simply vote down Dennis when the LABEL wanted him to continue with the hits he was writing.

If the label was putting the pressure on, it would have been on the band not just Dennis. So you cannot single him out. If the label wanted singles that doesn't mean that DDY was the only member that could write them. I am sure that at least TS could. I am sure that the label could care less who wrote the song if it was good enough for a single.

Geez, talk about making stuff up. Tommy's 'ideas' went on his first solo album...that's documented. I would suspect the same is true for JY. Whether you like it or not, they were pushed aside in favor of Kilroy.

So if TS was so sick of the type of music they were producing in Styx, then why would his solo material sound just like what he was doing in Styx? Where is the straight ahead Rock N' Roll he wanted? Why record a song like "Lonely School" if he was not in favor of the singles concept and softer, ballad type songs? Oh, I know the Label forced him to do it. So, LABEL= DDY's fault.

Even JY admits that DDY has natural leadership capabilities.

Most dictators do.

I don't think that is what JY was referring to when making that comment.

So, you don't believe DDY when HE said he forced Kilroy onto the band? Was he lying? Was he exaggerating? Ok, I can understand you having your wacky conspiracy theories about JY and Tommy and why they would say what they do about DDY' wanting so much control, why they fired him, why the felt he would come back with a vengeance, why they were worrying about it during BNW. Sure, it's all just to make them look good, and DDY look bad. Poor Dennis DeYoung, he's just a victim, or whatever. But, when DDY says it HIMSELF, how do you excuse that?

I never said that I did not believe that DDY forced that project on the band. If he said it himself then I am sure that is true. That doesn't mean he always had control of everything. I don't think they did the things you are talking about to make themselves look good. It's the simple fact that you had three people that were fighting for control of the band because each of them felt they knew best. I never said that DDY was perfect without any faults. It's more about them stating that they were unhappy with the direction of the band and had the ability to change what they didn't want to do. But they just didn't and now want to paint a picture that they had no choice in the matter. That is just plain BULLSHIT.

First of all, I said "maybe Tommy was more of a team player"...or whatever, I'm not going to go look for the exact quote. Point is, I didn't say that about all of them. Again, that was in response to somebody saying that JY should be angry at Tommy because of JY's status in the band....so keep it in context.

I also don't quite believe this story anyway. It would be more likely that they were just sick of each other (JY/Tommy vs. DDY) and Styx by that point. I know JY did some stuff for one of Tommy's solo albums. So, it's not like Tommy and JY hated each other and couldn't work together.

I think it's just as likely that Dennis simply wanted to put Styx to the side and do a few solo albums and this entire "we have to have Tommy in Styx" is just a second thought and is being made into something that it isn't. Maybe the rest of the band wanted to keep Styx and replace Tommy...and I wouldn't blame them if they did. But, at this point, I would expect Dennis to simply WANT to do something on his own, outside of Styx.

DDy always has said that he reluctantly became a solo artist. He always preferred to collaborate with other musicians. If he was so interested in being a solo act then he would have promoted his solo work much more then he actually did. Also, he has always stated that Styx was about all of them not just him alone. If you don't believe his comments about not wanting to move forward without Tommy then here are some more examples that DDY did not just think of himself:

On Crystal Ball, Tommy's material was featured heavily and his song was the title song of the album. When Glen joined Styx for "Edge of the Century" it was Glen's song that was the first single to be released. Not to mention that Glen had a lot of his material put on that album.

[Archetype]

I don't think Dennis ponders this too much anymore. His new band is simply incredible and their awesome reputation just continues to grow. He's geared up to bite a big chunk out of Styx's touring market.

[Boomchild]

I don't think Dennis ponders this too much anymore. His new band is simply incredible and their awesome reputation just continues to grow. He's geared up to bite a big chunk out of Styx's touring market.

You are probably right about that except I am not so sure he is looking at it from the point of wanting to take over Styx's share of the market. At this point in his career I think he is doing what he is comfortable with and the enjoyment of it.

[Blue Falcon]

There were other options the other members had then just firing him. If they each had equal voting power then just by out voting his ideas and direction they could go with what ever other ideas or direction they felt was best. It's more likely that at those times they for some reason did not have ideas or felt their ideas would not be as successful as DDY's. It appears more that DDY was a leader then a dictator. Even JY admits that DDY has natural leadership capabilities. They let DDY's ideas and direction go forward and then want to bitch and moan about it after the fact when in reality it was their own choice. If DDY was not a team player and Styx was all about him and him only then how do you explain his choice not to move forward with the band when TS walked in '84? The other so called "team players" wanted to find a replacement for TS and move on.

As much as JY likes to crow about 'firing' DDY twice, it must stick in his craw that he has had to back down in order to have any semblance of a career. Surely JY realizes that forming 'The James Young Project' would be greeted by the sound of crickets in concert halls across the country...and yes, I'll stop calling you 'Shirley.'

[Archetype]

I don't think Dennis ponders this too much anymore. His new band is simply incredible and their awesome reputation just continues to grow. He's geared up to bite a big chunk out of Styx's touring market.

You are probably right about that except I am not so sure he is looking at it from the point of wanting to take over Styx's share of the market. At this point in his career I think he is doing what he is comfortable with and the enjoyment of it.

He might not be gearing up to take over their market, but I think that if the desire to do so ever came up, he's more than capable. I saw the two Styx incarnations back to back and was simply amazed by Dennis and his band.

[froy]

I don't think Dennis ponders this too much anymore. His new band is simply incredible and their awesome reputation just continues to grow. He's geared up to bite a big chunk out of Styx's touring market.

Glad you have seen the light..

[Babyblue]

I don't think Dennis ponders this too much anymore. His new band is simply incredible and their awesome reputation just continues to grow. He's geared up to bite a big chunk out of Styx's touring market.

Glad you have seen the light..

Not going to ever happen

[froy]

I don't think Dennis ponders this too much anymore. His new band is simply incredible and their awesome reputation just continues to grow. He's geared up to bite a big chunk out of Styx's touring market.

Glad you have seen the light..

Not going to ever happen

Get lost goof

[Babyblue]

I don't think Dennis ponders this too much anymore. His new band is simply incredible and their awesome reputation just continues to grow. He's geared up to bite a big chunk out of Styx's touring market.

Glad you have seen the light..

Not going to ever happen

Get lost goof

Get along now pigeon

[froy]

I don't think Dennis ponders this too much anymore. His new band is simply incredible and their awesome reputation just continues to grow. He's geared up to bite a big chunk out of Styx's touring market.

Glad you have seen the light..

Not going to ever happen

Get lost goof

Get along now pigeon

You already used that one.

[Babyblue]

I don't think Dennis ponders this too much anymore. His new band is simply incredible and their awesome reputation just continues to grow. He's geared up to bite a big chunk out of Styx's touring market.

Glad you have seen the light..

Not going to ever happen

Get lost goof

Get along now pigeon

You already used that one.

Well then how is this one??????/

Run along before i get my gun pigeon

[brywool]

I don't think Dennis ponders this too much anymore. His new band is simply incredible and their awesome reputation just continues to grow. He's geared up to bite a big chunk out of Styx's touring market.

Dennis won't be taking a chunk out of Styx's touring market. The name STYX will do better than "Dennis DeYoung". It just will. Styx has been putting on quality shows forever (with Dennis and without). There are diehards that won't go unless Dennis is there. There are chicks that want to hear songs like "Babe". Those are not the hardcore Styx fans that've supported the band since 77 (speaking in general terms). Those are the fans that hopped on during the 16 Magazine heyday, during Cornerstone-Kilroy. The band took a hit during those times with their established audience. Sure, more fans came because of Babe, etc., but I would bet that those are not the same fans that STILL go to see Styx today. I would also bet that Styx lost more more fans than they gained. Their album sales prove that point. I don't think that those women will go see Dennis today either. I just don't. Dennis will do okay, but I do not think he will be hurting Styx's sales. If anything, there are now 2 great bands to see. They would be stupid to not separate their tours.

[Boomchild]

I don't think Dennis ponders this too much anymore. His new band is simply incredible and their awesome reputation just continues to grow. He's geared up to bite a big chunk out of Styx's touring market.

Glad you have seen the light..

Not going to ever happen

You must be looking through Tommy Shaw's Crystal Ball!

[Boomchild]

There were other options the other members had then just firing him. If they each had equal voting power then just by out voting his ideas and direction they could go with what ever other ideas or direction they felt was best. It's more likely that at those times they for some reason did not have ideas or felt their ideas would not be as successful as DDY's. It appears more that DDY was a leader then a dictator. Even JY admits that DDY has natural leadership capabilities. They let DDY's ideas and direction go forward and then want to bitch and moan about it after the fact when in reality it was their own choice. If DDY was not a team player and Styx was all about him and him only then how do you explain his choice not to move forward with the band when TS walked in '84? The other so called "team players" wanted to find a replacement for TS and move on.

As much as JY likes to crow about 'firing' DDY twice, it must stick in his craw that he has had to back down in order to have any semblance of a career. Surely JY realizes that forming 'The James Young Project' would be greeted by the sound of crickets in concert halls across the country...and yes, I'll stop calling you 'Shirley.'

I don't think that he realized that at all. His ego has clouded his mind so much that he felt he could go it alone. He should have seen that it wasn't going to get off the ground when not one record label was willing to put out that stuff. Over the long haul he has just not been the most recognized member of Styx. They used to refer to him as "The Tall Blond Guy From Styx". Maybe that's because people couldn't remember his name.

[Babyblue]

I don't think Dennis ponders this too much anymore. His new band is simply incredible and their awesome reputation just continues to grow. He's geared up to bite a big chunk out of Styx's touring market.

Glad you have seen the light..

Not going to ever happen

You must be looking through Tommy Shaw's Crystal Ball!

Maybe or maybe not.

[brywool]

I think Jy totally knows his place and that he is NOT the principal writer(s) in Styx. He's the lead guitarist and now, I guess, the business head of the band. I think he was always the business head, but I could be wrong on that. I just don't think that Jy has any delusions of grandeur here. Sure, he says some REALLY dumb and pretty harsh things, but I don't think that the guy in any way shape or form thinks HE is the main attraction of Styx.

Actually, the equal vote thing talked about a few posts up- it was my understanding that the band tried that approach and Dennis wouldn't have any of it. If that's the case, then that really is a reason to boot a guy out. Well, that and "First Time". (just kiddin)

[StyxCollector]

If they each had equal voting power then just by out voting his ideas and direction they could go with what ever other ideas or direction they felt was best.

You are still not seeing that there is this thing called a label that wanted hit singles. Everybody has to admit that the label put pressure on Dennis, and therefore Styx as a whole, to continue the hits...especially after Babe. They couldn't simply vote down Dennis when the LABEL wanted him to continue with the hits he was writing.

I disagree to some degree. They could have said, "No more." They didn't. Look at Rush - the label wanted hits, they gave them 2112 (see the new documentary on them for this whole thing). Their rationale was that if they're going to go out, they're going to go out with a bang. I've said this for years - when the money was really flowing for Styx in that 78 - 83 period (and they were doing things like touring the world), people put up with it to a large degree. And why wouldn't they? Everyone was doing OK even if they were getting less.

Were members unhappy? You bet. Tommy definitely was - he started working on GWG during PT in England. Dennis got fired and rehired. So it's not like everything was sunshine and roses around Styx. You can tell when they crossed the divide as a hungry band to a machine post-GI. I'm not saying they didn't have anything to say or were not hungry at all, but once you have massive success, it can only change you.

Where I do agree with you is that shit rolls downhill. The label is in a business to make money, not foster creativity. If art and commerce meet, good, if not, it's all about the Benjamins. So to that point, Dennis had a more proven track record for hits. It's only natural everyone - including the other guys in Styx - would defer to him - right or wrong.

[Monker]

If they each had equal voting power then just by out voting his ideas and direction they could go with what ever other ideas or direction they felt was best.

You are still not seeing that there is this thing called a label that wanted hit singles. Everybody has to admit that the label put pressure on Dennis, and therefore Styx as a whole, to continue the hits...especially after Babe. They couldn't simply vote down Dennis when the LABEL wanted him to continue with the hits he was writing.

I disagree to some degree. They could have said, "No more." They didn't. Look at Rush - the label wanted hits, they gave them 2112 (see the new documentary on them for this whole thing). Their rationale was that if they're going to go out, they're going to go out with a bang. I've said this for years - when the money was really flowing for Styx in that 78 - 83 period (and they were doing things like touring the world), people put up with it to a large degree. And why wouldn't they? Everyone was doing OK even if they were getting less.

And, that's the point. They had a choice. Take a huge risk on their future by confronting DDY, firing him, making him quit, losing their label, etc. Or, putting up with it and keep the big check. I think it is unreasonable to say they could have just voted it down.

Did Rush take the risk as a band, or just one member making a stand? I don't know, but I would bet it was as a band. And, yes, it is a risk, cuz usually the label can refuse to release the album.

Were members unhappy? You bet. Tommy definitely was - he started working on GWG during PT in England. Dennis got fired and rehired. So it's not like everything was sunshine and roses around Styx. You can tell when they crossed the divide as a hungry band to a machine post-GI. I'm not saying they didn't have anything to say or were not hungry at all, but once you have massive success, it can only change you.

Does "Kiss Me Hello" not have a lot of words about his situation with Styx? About the struggle to decide on whether to leave the band or stay, and coming to the conclusion that he had probably stayed too long in Styx and it was time to leave?

Where I do agree with you is that shit rolls downhill. The label is in a business to make money, not foster creativity. If art and commerce meet, good, if not, it's all about the Benjamins. So to that point, Dennis had a more proven track record for hits. It's only natural everyone - including the other guys in Styx - would defer to him - right or wrong.

I was thinking someone involved with Styx said something similar to what Herbie said about #1 singles...that once you get it, the label expects a #1 single on every album. So, it stops being about the album package and becomes "what is the next #1?" Every album after Babe had a similar formulistic ballad..."Don't Let it End", "Show Me the Way", etc.