FEDERAL JUDGE knocks down PRO 8 in CA...

[Monker]

Bobby to put it simply...

The government doesn't give us rights...we are born with them...If it was the other way around and the government gave us rights...then they could take them away...which isn't how it supposed to be...

Stuie, that's just not true. If you pay any attention to the FOX propaganda, government always wants to take away our rights...except when it's a 'conservative' in office and there is an excuse such as 'terrorism'. You only have the rights government 'allows' you to have.

[Monker]

This is America, a free country, for goodness sake - you would think individuals gay & straight alike would automatically have the same rights to love who they want to love and marry who they want to marry without all these debates, bans, props, discrimination and other such nonsense. Prejudice and limitations placed on others makes me angry

That's what it's sposed to do. It's just politics to make one side or the other angry.

[RossValoryRocks]

Bobby to put it simply...

The government doesn't give us rights...we are born with them...If it was the other way around and the government gave us rights...then they could take them away...which isn't how it supposed to be...

Stuie, that's just not true. If you pay any attention to the FOX propaganda, government always wants to take away our rights...except when it's a 'conservative' in office and there is an excuse such as 'terrorism'. You only have the rights government 'allows' you to have.

You should call yourself "Flunker"...because you don't know a damn thing about government...or history or how or why our government was setup as it is...how did you graduate high school...this is basic US history...and taught in any 8th grade government class...

We give the Federal and state governments various rights and powers...the rest are ours...any power or right not given to the government EXPRESSLY by the people is held BY the people. End of story.

[parfait]

Just so we got this covered: being homosexual or straight is not a choice; it's a sexual orientation - it's something you're born with. Another sexual orientation is pedophilia and in some respects ephebophilia too. There's been done significant studies, showing the difference in brains between a heterosexual and homosexual man. It's all in the structure of of the brain. If one wishes to suppress that; go for it. But generally speaking, one can say that you are born gay/straight or whatever.

That's one of the reasons one cannot cure pedophilia through therapy, because the sexual urge for pre-pubescent kids will always be there (it's a personal choice wether to act upon that urge though). The only good treatment method for pedophilia to this day, is chemical castration.


http://www.nerve.com/regulars/scienceofsex/09-05-00
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1815538,00.html

[ChildInTime]

Good.

No, not good. An unelected judge again has disinfranchised the voters of California who passed this measure at the ballot box.

People have probably said it before, but whatever.

let's put it this way.

What if the rights of black people and desegregation were put in the hands of the people way back when? Do you think there would be desegregation, etc. at the time it was introduced, still?

The civil rights of a minority--no, of people as a WHOLE-- shouldn't always have to be at the hands of the majority. Change-- for the better or worse-- wouldn't happen very often in that case, like in the situation I presented above. Plus, the case on the pro-prop-8 side was hilariously weak in the face of the anti-prop-8 arguments in the court room. All the usual "but... but the children!!!" and "GAYS THREATEN MARRIAGE AS WE KNOW IT" (wut) and "MARRIAGE IS A RELIGIOUS INSITUTION" arguments were used, and were all blown away. I say that's pretty damn fair. And anyway, there are people at those cases. Witnesses on both sides. It's just up to the judge(s) and jury to make a decision based on peoples' arguments and debate.

In any case.... I am VERY happy about the decision myself, despite not living in California. I'm happy for all the couples there who finally have a chance to get all the rights and privileges that they should've had all along.

[ChildInTime]

Oh, and before I forget:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#38567479

A lot of you on the anti-gay-marriage side of the fence probably don't like Maddow at all, but she definitely articulates some of my points in a better way than I ever could.

[RedWingFan]

I'm out. Early day tomorrow. The ruling today from California was monumental but it is only the beginning of a huge victory in America for equal rights for all Americans, not just the heterosexual ones.

We already have equal rights Bobby. You are just as free to marry a woman as I was and I didn't have the right to marry a man just like you. THAT is as equal as you can get!

[BobbyinTN]

Nothing went over my head, I just didn't fall for it.

I think you need to look up the defintion of hypocrite.

Bobby, take the criticism for what it is. I've known Rhiannon on here for several years now and she certainly isn't a hypocrite.

But neither am I. If she calls out one person for hypocrisy, why doesn't she do it to others? If she is pissed off at my attitude, why isn't she pissed off at others on this forum who are much worse than I and who offend people every day?


That's hypocrisy.

[BobbyinTN]

I'm out. Early day tomorrow. The ruling today from California was monumental but it is only the beginning of a huge victory in America for equal rights for all Americans, not just the heterosexual ones.

We already have equal rights Bobby. You are just as free to marry a woman as I was and I didn't have the right to marry a man just like you. THAT is as equal as you can get!

That's bullshit. You can marry the person you love, I can't. It's that simple.

[BobbyinTN]

It's people like Bobby with their hatred who give the gay community the bad reputation and cause more hatred than actually helping people to accept them.
Bobby , I'd tell you to go fuck yourself , but we all know you'd take it as a compliment. I don't have a problem with your lifestyle. It's your hate towards anyone with any opinions that doesn't match yours that I got problems with. .

I'll always fight the haters. People said the same thing about the women who lead the movement for women's rights and the people who lead the movement for Black's rights.

People will use any excuse they can think of to hate and my defense of what is right isn't going to change their minds one way or the other if they have decided that homosexuals don't deserve equal rights.


With all due respect to everyone on these forums, I honestly don't give a damn about opinions of me, I simply want what is right and that's equal rights for everyone in America to marry who they love and not be discriminated against of harassed for it.

[conversationpc]

I'll always fight the haters. People said the same thing about the women who lead the movement for women's rights and the people who lead the movement for Black's rights.

People will use any excuse they can think of to hate and my defense of what is right isn't going to change their minds one way or the other if they have decided that homosexuals don't deserve equal rights.


With all due respect to everyone on these forums, I honestly don't give a damn about opinions of me, I simply want what is right and that's equal rights for everyone in America to marry who they love and not be discriminated against of harassed for it.

Bobby, I don't remember ever hearing about MLK displaying an attitude like this...

I don't give a flying fuck who "approves" of my life but not having every legal right that every trashy, 4 times married heterosexual has will not be tolerated.

Get used to it haters...

[StevePerryHair]

It's people like Bobby with their hatred who give the gay community the bad reputation and cause more hatred than actually helping people to accept them.
Bobby , I'd tell you to go fuck yourself , but we all know you'd take it as a compliment. I don't have a problem with your lifestyle. It's your hate towards anyone with any opinions that doesn't match yours that I got problems with. .

I'll always fight the haters. People said the same thing about the women who lead the movement for women's rights and the people who lead the movement for Black's rights.
People will use any excuse they can think of to hate and my defense of what is right isn't going to change their minds one way or the other if they have decided that homosexuals don't deserve equal rights.
With all due respect to everyone on these forums, I honestly don't give a damn about opinions of me, I simply want what is right and that's equal rights for everyone in America to marry who they love and not be discriminated against of harassed for it.

you came in here with that hate before you were even attacked. Were you even attacked personally? I didnt notice. There will always be haters. People who hate gays or even just don't understand and they don't see the inequalities. People who still hate black people. People who still think women shouldn't have equal rights. Ignorance and prejudice will always exist no matter how nasty you are. And in my experience, their prejudice will only grow the nastier you get. MLK preached peace amongst races. Not angry words. Peace. He got it. That you will not win over the people with hate, anger and putting down the other races, giving it right back to them. Your approach isn't a peaceful one that's for sure. You've mentioned enough times around here you don't give a crap what anyone here thinks because you are under the illusion we are not real or something. But we are. And we are a real cross section of society right here at your fingertips. I see you as stooping to their level when I hear you tear down heterosexuals. Sorry.

[conversationpc]

Bobby to put it simply...

The government doesn't give us rights...we are born with them...If it was the other way around and the government gave us rights...then they could take them away...which isn't how it supposed to be...

Stuie, that's just not true. If you pay any attention to the FOX propaganda, government always wants to take away our rights...except when it's a 'conservative' in office and there is an excuse such as 'terrorism'. You only have the rights government 'allows' you to have.

You should call yourself "Flunker"...because you don't know a damn thing about government...or history or how or why our government was setup as it is...how did you graduate high school...this is basic US history...and taught in any 8th grade government class...

We give the Federal and state governments various rights and powers...the rest are ours...any power or right not given to the government EXPRESSLY by the people is held BY the people. End of story.

If the government doesn't recognize that people are BORN with rights, i.e. rights given to them by God (otherwise known as "natural law"), then the government can easily take those rights away.

[Ehwmatt]

It's people like Bobby with their hatred who give the gay community the bad reputation and cause more hatred than actually helping people to accept them.
Bobby , I'd tell you to go fuck yourself , but we all know you'd take it as a compliment. I don't have a problem with your lifestyle. It's your hate towards anyone with any opinions that doesn't match yours that I got problems with. .

I'll always fight the haters. People said the same thing about the women who lead the movement for women's rights and the people who lead the movement for Black's rights.
People will use any excuse they can think of to hate and my defense of what is right isn't going to change their minds one way or the other if they have decided that homosexuals don't deserve equal rights.
With all due respect to everyone on these forums, I honestly don't give a damn about opinions of me, I simply want what is right and that's equal rights for everyone in America to marry who they love and not be discriminated against of harassed for it.

you came in here with that hate before you were even attacked. Were you even attacked personally? I didnt notice. There will always be haters. People who hate gays or even just don't understand and they don't see the inequalities. People who still hate black people. People who still think women shouldn't have equal rights. Ignorance and prejudice will always exist no matter how nasty you are. And in my experience, their prejudice will only grow the nastier you get. MLK preached peace amongst races. Not angry words. Peace. He got it. That you will not win over the people with hate, anger and putting down the other races, giving it right back to them. Your approach isn't a peaceful one that's for sure. You've mentioned enough times around here you don't give a crap what anyone here thinks because you are under the illusion we are not real or something. But we are. And we are a real cross section of society right here at your fingertips. I see you as stooping to their level when I hear you tear down heterosexuals. Sorry.

Well said Lynn.

Bobby, you need to calm down a bit bud. All this hatred can't be good for the heart.

[Behshad]

It's people like Bobby with their hatred who give the gay community the bad reputation and cause more hatred than actually helping people to accept them.
Bobby , I'd tell you to go fuck yourself , but we all know you'd take it as a compliment. I don't have a problem with your lifestyle. It's your hate towards anyone with any opinions that doesn't match yours that I got problems with. .

I'll always fight the haters. People said the same thing about the women who lead the movement for women's rights and the people who lead the movement for Black's rights.

People will use any excuse they can think of to hate and my defense of what is right isn't going to change their minds one way or the other if they have decided that homosexuals don't deserve equal rights.


With all due respect to everyone on these forums, I honestly don't give a damn about opinions of me, I simply want what is right and that's equal rights for everyone in America to marry who they love and not be discriminated against of harassed for it.

You cant fight hate with more hate . Simple as that .

And if you think that people will always use an excuse to hate and you can not change their minds, then whats the point of gettin all worked up over it ???

Let me ask you this, if youre given the RIGHTS you deserve to marry your boyfriend, then will you support a mother's RIGHTS wanting to marry his son or nephew ? Theyre both human and have the rights to marry who they love, right?

[bluejeangirl76]

Dear lord, I wish I had the time and the ENERGY to have this discussion, but it's the same thing every time this issue comes up here. Lynn said most of it for me already anyway.

I just do not understand how people think it's ok to deny people the right to marry whomever they choose. It's discrimination plain and simple. I would like it explained to me how someone's choice in a spouse affects people so much that they actually crusade against it.

We the people may have been granted the right to vote, but some of the things we feel we have the right to vote ON just amaze me sometimes. This is no different than what women and blacks went through.

We are NOT so superior that we should be the only people allowed to marry because we're straight. It's always the same lame argument... marriage is an institution, a sacrement, it's sacred, and allowing gays to marry BLAH BLAH BLAH.

You know what, bullshit. How can a country where we have things like Ashley Madison advertising all over the radio have the nerve to talk about protecting the institution of marriage? Kiss my ass with that. Gays are the same as the rest of us. They love, they date they marry (even if it isn't recognized), they fight, they break up... I mean come on.

The stereotyping of gays being a bunch of permiscuous pervs running around doing nothing but "sucking and fucking" has got to be one of the absolute stupidest arguments I have heard. Like there aren't just as many straight people who are into running around doing weird shit? Ashley Madion, CougarLife.com, swinger parties... this is somehow a positive profile of the sacred institution of marriage?

Meanwhile you have a same sex couple with a home and family and PTA meetings and their local rotary club and whatever the hell else.... and they aren't allowed to visit their partner in intensive care because of the "family only" rule? They can't "in some states" get health coverage for/from their partner's job... and the list goes on.

I just can't believe sometimes that live in a country that is happy to deny rights to a group of people just because they don't like them or their lifestyle. I don't particularly like or agree with, for example, people are into husband/wife swapping, I think it's sick, but it doesn't affect ME, so I leave it alone. How is this any different? It's NOT.

Hmm... looks like I found a burst of energy afterall...

[BobbyinTN]

Bobby to put it simply...

The government doesn't give us rights...we are born with them...If it was the other way around and the government gave us rights...then they could take them away...which isn't how it supposed to be...

Stuie, that's just not true. If you pay any attention to the FOX propaganda, government always wants to take away our rights...except when it's a 'conservative' in office and there is an excuse such as 'terrorism'. You only have the rights government 'allows' you to have.

You should call yourself "Flunker"...because you don't know a damn thing about government...or history or how or why our government was setup as it is...how did you graduate high school...this is basic US history...and taught in any 8th grade government class...

We give the Federal and state governments various rights and powers...the rest are ours...any power or right not given to the government EXPRESSLY by the people is held BY the people. End of story.

Dude, and you should call yourself God of all.


Why do you think you know everything about this subject and yet people argue for years and years about it court. It's interpration man, nothing more and nothing less. For every reason you give that the "people" make the laws, a counter point can be given.


It's like the Bible, you want everyone to believe your interpretation and that's not how it works.

[KenTheDude]

Just a few observations I have:

1. Why waste the citizens of California's time in the first place by putting this up for vote if a judge can just come in change it anyway? Even if the judge's argument was that it was unconstitutional. The people that put it on the ballot originally should have realized that and it would ultimately be challenged.

2. This will cause a lot of people not to vote on specific causes if they think it might be challenged and overturned at a later date.

3. The term "Conflict of Interest" instantly comes to mind when a gay, single federal judge happens to be the one that overturns this.

4. What's totally ironic is any minority that voted against gay marriage originally, had to fight so hard to get that voting right in the first place.

[BobbyinTN]

Bobby to put it simply...

The government doesn't give us rights...we are born with them...If it was the other way around and the government gave us rights...then they could take them away...which isn't how it supposed to be...

Stuie, that's just not true. If you pay any attention to the FOX propaganda, government always wants to take away our rights...except when it's a 'conservative' in office and there is an excuse such as 'terrorism'. You only have the rights government 'allows' you to have.

You should call yourself "Flunker"...because you don't know a damn thing about government...or history or how or why our government was setup as it is...how did you graduate high school...this is basic US history...and taught in any 8th grade government class...

We give the Federal and state governments various rights and powers...the rest are ours...any power or right not given to the government EXPRESSLY by the people is held BY the people. End of story.

If the government doesn't recognize that people are BORN with rights, i.e. rights given to them by God (otherwise known as "natural law"), then the government can easily take those rights away.

God doesn't give rights, if He did, atheists would have none.

[BobbyinTN]

It's people like Bobby with their hatred who give the gay community the bad reputation and cause more hatred than actually helping people to accept them.
Bobby , I'd tell you to go fuck yourself , but we all know you'd take it as a compliment. I don't have a problem with your lifestyle. It's your hate towards anyone with any opinions that doesn't match yours that I got problems with. .

I'll always fight the haters. People said the same thing about the women who lead the movement for women's rights and the people who lead the movement for Black's rights.
People will use any excuse they can think of to hate and my defense of what is right isn't going to change their minds one way or the other if they have decided that homosexuals don't deserve equal rights.
With all due respect to everyone on these forums, I honestly don't give a damn about opinions of me, I simply want what is right and that's equal rights for everyone in America to marry who they love and not be discriminated against of harassed for it.

you came in here with that hate before you were even attacked. Were you even attacked personally? I didnt notice. There will always be haters. People who hate gays or even just don't understand and they don't see the inequalities. People who still hate black people. People who still think women shouldn't have equal rights. Ignorance and prejudice will always exist no matter how nasty you are. And in my experience, their prejudice will only grow the nastier you get. MLK preached peace amongst races. Not angry words. Peace. He got it. That you will not win over the people with hate, anger and putting down the other races, giving it right back to them. Your approach isn't a peaceful one that's for sure. You've mentioned enough times around here you don't give a crap what anyone here thinks because you are under the illusion we are not real or something. But we are. And we are a real cross section of society right here at your fingertips. I see you as stooping to their level when I hear you tear down heterosexuals. Sorry.

You fight fire with fire.

[bluejeangirl76]

4. What's totally ironic is any minority that voted against gay marriage originally, had to fight so hard to get that voting right in the first place.

Well, yeah but hey, sometimes you have to fight hard to gain the right to deny rights to others.

[BobbyinTN]

I'll always fight the haters. People said the same thing about the women who lead the movement for women's rights and the people who lead the movement for Black's rights.

People will use any excuse they can think of to hate and my defense of what is right isn't going to change their minds one way or the other if they have decided that homosexuals don't deserve equal rights.


With all due respect to everyone on these forums, I honestly don't give a damn about opinions of me, I simply want what is right and that's equal rights for everyone in America to marry who they love and not be discriminated against of harassed for it.

Bobby, I don't remember ever hearing about MLK displaying an attitude like this...

I don't give a flying fuck who "approves" of my life but not having every legal right that every trashy, 4 times married heterosexual has will not be tolerated.

Get used to it haters...

So let me get this "straight". LOL

It's okay for the haters to say what they will and enact laws that discriminate and create second class citizens, but those who are discriminated against and made second class citizens should just say "thank you so much, you're so kind" and not care at all about what's being done?


This isn't just about the rights of homosexuals it's about the rights of everyone and every minority who could have laws enacted against them by the "majority".


You guys should be as pissed off as anyone else, but you'd rather be complacent. Right?

[conversationpc]

Bobby to put it simply...

The government doesn't give us rights...we are born with them...If it was the other way around and the government gave us rights...then they could take them away...which isn't how it supposed to be...

Stuie, that's just not true. If you pay any attention to the FOX propaganda, government always wants to take away our rights...except when it's a 'conservative' in office and there is an excuse such as 'terrorism'. You only have the rights government 'allows' you to have.

You should call yourself "Flunker"...because you don't know a damn thing about government...or history or how or why our government was setup as it is...how did you graduate high school...this is basic US history...and taught in any 8th grade government class...

We give the Federal and state governments various rights and powers...the rest are ours...any power or right not given to the government EXPRESSLY by the people is held BY the people. End of story.

If the government doesn't recognize that people are BORN with rights, i.e. rights given to them by God (otherwise known as "natural law"), then the government can easily take those rights away.

God doesn't give rights, if He did, atheists would have none.

Bobby, that statement makes no sense whatsoever.

[BobbyinTN]

It's people like Bobby with their hatred who give the gay community the bad reputation and cause more hatred than actually helping people to accept them.
Bobby , I'd tell you to go fuck yourself , but we all know you'd take it as a compliment. I don't have a problem with your lifestyle. It's your hate towards anyone with any opinions that doesn't match yours that I got problems with. .

With all due respect to everyone on these forums, I honestly don't give a damn about opinions of me, I simply want what is right and that's equal rights for everyone in America to marry who they love and not be discriminated against of harassed for it.

You cant fight hate with more hate . Simple as that .

And if you think that people will always use an excuse to hate and you can not change their minds, then whats the point of gettin all worked up over it ???

Let me ask you this, if youre given the RIGHTS you deserve to marry your boyfriend, then will you support a mother's RIGHTS wanting to marry his son or nephew ? Theyre both human and have the rights to marry who they love, right?

That's such bullshit and a pussy way out of the argument. And actually a mother could marry her son at any JOP or in Vegas or anywhere she wanted to as long as they didn't tell anyone. So until you can come up with a better argument, you should stay clear of this conversation.

[conversationpc]

So let me get this "straight". LOL

It's okay for the haters to say what they will and enact laws that discriminate and create second class citizens, but those who are discriminated against and made second class citizens should just say "thank you so much, you're so kind" and not care at all about what's being done?

Didn't say that, did I?

This isn't just about the rights of homosexuals it's about the rights of everyone and every minority who could have laws enacted against them by the "majority"

I already agreed with you on that but you seem to have purposely skipped over that.

[BobbyinTN]

Well said Lynn.

Bobby, you need to calm down a bit bud. All this hatred can't be good for the heart.

I'll calm down when every American has equal rights.

[BobbyinTN]

Dear lord, I wish I had the time and the ENERGY to have this discussion, but it's the same thing every time this issue comes up here. Lynn said most of it for me already anyway.

I just do not understand how people think it's ok to deny people the right to marry whomever they choose. It's discrimination plain and simple. I would like it explained to me how someone's choice in a spouse affects people so much that they actually crusade against it.

We the people may have been granted the right to vote, but some of the things we feel we have the right to vote ON just amaze me sometimes. This is no different than what women and blacks went through.

We are NOT so superior that we should be the only people allowed to marry because we're straight. It's always the same lame argument... marriage is an institution, a sacrement, it's sacred, and allowing gays to marry BLAH BLAH BLAH.

You know what, bullshit. How can a country where we have things like Ashley Madison advertising all over the radio have the nerve to talk about protecting the institution of marriage? Kiss my ass with that. Gays are the same as the rest of us. They love, they date they marry (even if it isn't recognized), they fight, they break up... I mean come on.

The stereotyping of gays being a bunch of permiscuous pervs running around doing nothing but "sucking and fucking" has got to be one of the absolute stupidest arguments I have heard. Like there aren't just as many straight people who are into running around doing weird shit? Ashley Madion, CougarLife.com, swinger parties... this is somehow a positive profile of the sacred institution of marriage?

Meanwhile you have a same sex couple with a home and family and PTA meetings and their local rotary club and whatever the hell else.... and they aren't allowed to visit their partner in intensive care because of the "family only" rule? They can't "in some states" get health coverage for/from their partner's job... and the list goes on.

I just can't believe sometimes that live in a country that is happy to deny rights to a group of people just because they don't like them or their lifestyle. I don't particularly like or agree with, for example, people are into husband/wife swapping, I think it's sick, but it doesn't affect ME, so I leave it alone. How is this any different? It's NOT.

Hmm... looks like I found a burst of energy afterall...

Exactly! Thank you for that.

[Ehwmatt]

I'll calm down when every American has equal rights.

See, the problem is, your version of equal rights is to have everyone accept your worldview and acquiesce in it 100% with nary a protest. That's not America.

[BobbyinTN]

So let me get this "straight". LOL

It's okay for the haters to say what they will and enact laws that discriminate and create second class citizens, but those who are discriminated against and made second class citizens should just say "thank you so much, you're so kind" and not care at all about what's being done?

Didn't say that, did I?

This isn't just about the rights of homosexuals it's about the rights of everyone and every minority who could have laws enacted against them by the "majority"

I already agreed with you on that but you seem to have purposely skipped over that.

Sorry, I can't keep track of all the posts. So, why are we arguing if you agree with me?

[BobbyinTN]

I'll calm down when every American has equal rights.

See, the problem is, your version of equal rights is to have everyone accept your worldview and acquiesce in it 100% with nary a protest. That's not America.

Bullshit. I don't accept the "worldview" of Christians, but I believe they have a right to believe as they wish to.

I don't accept the "worldview" of Mormons, but they have their rights.


I don't accept the "worldview" of sports nuts or vegans or heterosexual couples who swing, who have three-ways, who watch porn, but they all have the right to do as they please as long as they're not hurting anyone.


If you can't accept homosexuals, that's your problem not mine. But you do not have the right to tell me how to live or who I can or can't marry.