Should the Mosque at Ground Zero be allowed

General Intelligent Discussion & One Thread About That Buttknuckle

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Should the Mosque at Ground Zero be allowed?

Poll ended at Sun Aug 22, 2010 4:39 am

Yes. It is legal and they have every rite.
11
26%
No - Give the area national park status to put an end to the issue.
16
37%
No - This should not be allowed even if it is legal.
16
37%
 
Total votes : 43

Postby Melissa » Sat Aug 21, 2010 4:23 am

Behshad wrote:
Melissa wrote:
Behshad wrote:So you'd be ok with a church or even a 7-11 being built there ?! :P


Nope. With the way families and friends of those lost have expressed their feelings on that spot, I don't think anything should be built there. And interestingly enough, I work with a Muslim (and have for over 13 years now) and she told me there are even many Muslims (herself included) saying this is not a good idea at all. If that doesn't speak volumes, I don't know what does.


Well you'd be glad to know that there is a 7-11 around the area that not only is owned by Apu from Bombay , but he sells 9/11 t-shirts and coffee mugs. That's a slap in the face , not a mosque or church or any holy buildings.


Nope I'm not glad to know that. And the point of it being that particular spot is still being missed, so it doesn't matter anymore, lol.
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Postby conversationpc » Sat Aug 21, 2010 8:25 am

Fact Finder wrote:I hope this is correct info, any NY'ers out there who can verify? Do they really sound out the prayer call over loudspeakers 5 times a day in NY? Are they going to broadcast the call to prayer over Ground Zero 5 times a day too?


Something tells me there's more to the story of that photo but if it's true, their asses should be hauled off to jail.
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Postby Monker » Sun Aug 22, 2010 3:01 am

This nails this issue on so many level...everything I've been arguing in this forum:

http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2010/08 ... he_mo.html
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Postby RossValoryRocks » Sun Aug 22, 2010 3:27 am

Monker wrote:This nails this issue on so many level...everything I've been arguing in this forum:

http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2010/08 ... he_mo.html


I think everyone has been saying that...well almost everyone.

They have the right absolutely to build it...it's just not a real smart thing to do.
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Postby The_Noble_Cause » Sun Aug 22, 2010 3:44 am

Fact Finder wrote: Are they going to broadcast the call to prayer over Ground Zero 5 times a day too?


I believe it was confirmed that the Community Center will not feature call-to-prayer loudspeakers. Just sayin.
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Postby Monker » Sun Aug 22, 2010 4:01 am

RossValoryRocks wrote:
Monker wrote:This nails this issue on so many level...everything I've been arguing in this forum:

http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2010/08 ... he_mo.html


I think everyone has been saying that...well almost everyone.

They have the right absolutely to build it...it's just not a real smart thing to do.


Stuie, as I have been pointing out, it's the Republicans who have politicized the issue into a "it's a not a smart thing to do". It should have never been that way.

The 'smart thing to do' would have been to invite them to build the mosque and showcase it to the world as evidence that we are not a religiously bigoted country...and EVERY religion has freedom in this country...unlike in other parts of the world.

Instead, we do the exact opposite. Republicans use the situation for political gain, Democrats are too big of pussies to stand up to them. And, we as a nation look like a bunch of hypocritical, bigoted, assholes.

Everybody involved in this discussion came out looking bad....and NONE of them look very smart. Including people like you who consistently make this political argument...and that is what it is, even though you won't admit it.
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Postby Monker » Sun Aug 22, 2010 4:24 am

EXACTLY what I have been arguing here on what people like you really want.

You don't believe in the Constitution and Bill of Rights and that they should apply to everybody. Instead, you only want it to apply to those you can stomach. That is not the way this country works.

Please move to China where government is more like what you want.

quote="Fact Finder"]If you guys want to grant Freedom of Religion to this death murder cult go right ahead. Not me.


Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98

Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39

Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. - 5:14

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67

Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3

When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5

Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. - 9:28

O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9:73

Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9:111

Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers. - 48:29

Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. - 66:9

The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - 98:51

[/quote]
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Postby artist4perry » Sun Aug 22, 2010 4:27 am

Definition of this arguement.

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Postby artist4perry » Sun Aug 22, 2010 4:33 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM

You two need to enter this clinic. A little levity for you! :wink: :lol:
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Postby Saint John » Sun Aug 22, 2010 4:42 am

Fact Finder wrote:
Every Friday afternoon this is the scene at Madison Ave and 42nd St in NYC. Seems the local Mosque can't hold all of the followers so they just spill out into the NY street and block traffic while they pray.


Image


I hope this is correct info, any NY'ers out there who can verify? Do they really sound out the prayer call over loudspeakers 5 times a day in NY? Are they going to broadcast the call to prayer over Ground Zero 5 times a day too?


Great place for an out of control bus to scream through.
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Postby artist4perry » Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:26 am

Image


This is my sculpture I made in remembrance of 9/11 at collage. The girl who did my critique was muslim. I think it was interesting of all the students the teacher chose this girl. I was very pleased. She and I are friends. Her critique was simple, and factual. And very nice. No not all muslims are bad. I only wish the majority were like her. She understood completely.

This is her critique.
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Postby YoungJRNY » Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:36 am

Fact Finder wrote:Image


This is not our problem. We've been there since 2001. We can't play babysitter to all countries who are out of whack. We only put our own soldiers in jeopardy and fight the un-winnable battle over there. No point in today's day in world. We'll be over there forever with no advancement.
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Postby Rip Rokken » Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:44 am

Fact Finder wrote:The point is that they want to bring their way of life here and force it on us. Nothing but the US Armed Services stand in their way. Nothing!


Don't forget an ever-increasingly armed populace, especially thanks to rumors the Obama administration would screw with the 2nd Amendment.
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Postby Monker » Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:54 am

Fact Finder wrote:
YoungJRNY wrote:
Fact Finder wrote:Image


This is not our problem. We've been there since 2001. We can't play babysitter to all countries who are out of whack. We only put our own soldiers in jeopardy and fight the un-winnable battle over there. No point in today's day in world. We'll be over there forever with no advancement.



The point is that they want to bring their way of life here and force it on us. Nothing but the US Armed Services stand in their way. Nothing!


So, in other words Mr McCarthy, you do not believe our government can handle a group of protesters who disagree with our laws. You do not believe the people of this country can handle a religion trying to force its values upon the nation. You believe the people of this country will bow to a version of God they do not believe in.

Funny, so many already believe the above is happening right now to Christians in the US.

Take our fear mongering to China where the government can use you people like you to spread propaganda to get the people to believe whatever they want.
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Postby Monker » Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:56 am

Rip Rokken wrote:
Fact Finder wrote:The point is that they want to bring their way of life here and force it on us. Nothing but the US Armed Services stand in their way. Nothing!


Don't forget an ever-increasingly armed populace, especially thanks to rumors the Obama administration would screw with the 2nd Amendment.


LOL...that has been said about every Democratic president in my memory...and it never happens. It's never even proposed or talked about having the 2nd amendment change. Again, fear mongering, spreading rumors, and complete BS.

It's the Republicans who constantly want to amend the Constitution for this and that....but I don't read an uproar about that - and there should be.
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Postby YoungJRNY » Sun Aug 22, 2010 6:04 am

Monker wrote:
Fact Finder wrote:
YoungJRNY wrote:
Fact Finder wrote:Image


This is not our problem. We've been there since 2001. We can't play babysitter to all countries who are out of whack. We only put our own soldiers in jeopardy and fight the un-winnable battle over there. No point in today's day in world. We'll be over there forever with no advancement.



The point is that they want to bring their way of life here and force it on us. Nothing but the US Armed Services stand in their way. Nothing!


So, in other words Mr McCarthy, you do not believe our government can handle a group of protesters who disagree with our laws. You do not believe the people of this country can handle a religion trying to force its values upon the nation. You believe the people of this country will bow to a version of God they do not believe in.

Funny, so many already believe the above is happening right now to Christians in the US.

Take our fear mongering to China where the government can use you people like you to spread propaganda to get the people to believe whatever they want.


What the hell HAS our government done for our country over the past decade other than dig ourselves into even deeper debt and harm? We need to do what we need to do, obviously, but we dug our own spot into diverging into a military plan involving Afghanistan that simply doesn't look good in the long term.

You obviously indulge into this more-so than I do because ignortant fights occur, but whatever we have planned for the future endevors of our country, I simply have no faith in an overall outcome unless we start showing progress within the next couple of years. If not, these problems will continue to surface and we will be stuck in standstill and have nothing to say about it.
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Postby Monker » Sun Aug 22, 2010 6:18 am

Fact Finder wrote:
Monker wrote:
Rip Rokken wrote:
Fact Finder wrote:The point is that they want to bring their way of life here and force it on us. Nothing but the US Armed Services stand in their way. Nothing!


Don't forget an ever-increasingly armed populace, especially thanks to rumors the Obama administration would screw with the 2nd Amendment.


LOL...that has been said about every Democratic president in my memory...and it never happens. It's never even proposed or talked about having the 2nd amendment change. Again, fear mongering, spreading rumors, and complete BS.

It's the Republicans who constantly want to amend the Constitution for this and that....but I don't read an uproar about that - and there should be.



Yet you were clearly for the passage of the Un-Constitutional Healthcare bill. :roll:


Prove it. I mostly stayed out of that debate. I was neither for nor against it. My opinion was, and is, that the pussy Democrats caved in to Republican "demands" repeatedly. But, nothing they did could satisfy Republicans, who were just out for blood and wanted NOTHING to pass. My opinion is they should have truly 'rammed a bill down their throats"...one that they wanted, instead of the watered down nothingness that we got. Nowadays they neither have the will nor the political capital to get anything done.

And, I never said the Constitution needed amending, which is what I was talking about above. Republicans have talked about amendments for : Flag burning, life begins at conception, defining marriage, and the latest being repealing the 14th amendment. If they have a problem with the liberties we are guaranteed, they want to amend the Constitution to LIMIT liberties. I'm certain somewhere along the line some dickhead Republican will want to remove religious freedoms from the Bill of Rights. That's their nature.
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Postby Rip Rokken » Sun Aug 22, 2010 6:24 am

Monker wrote:
Rip Rokken wrote:
Fact Finder wrote:The point is that they want to bring their way of life here and force it on us. Nothing but the US Armed Services stand in their way. Nothing!


Don't forget an ever-increasingly armed populace, especially thanks to rumors the Obama administration would screw with the 2nd Amendment.


LOL...that has been said about every Democratic president in my memory...and it never happens. It's never even proposed or talked about having the 2nd amendment change. Again, fear mongering, spreading rumors, and complete BS.
It's the Republicans who constantly want to amend the Constitution for this and that....but I don't read an uproar about that - and there should be.


I don't believe it's imminent, but the fact is gun sales are on the rise big time because a lot of people do believe it. Knee-jerk or not, rumors often have a huge effect on how the public behaves, whether it's purchasing firearms or moving all your investments to cash overnight. But not all the fear is completely unfounded, though. Remember Clinton's assault weapons ban which was later overturned. There's always someone with the desire and intent to monkey with the 2nd Amendment.
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Postby Rip Rokken » Sun Aug 22, 2010 6:33 am

Fact Finder wrote:
Prove it



ok..easy peasy


Monker said:
My opinion is they should have truly 'rammed a bill down their throats"...one that they wanted, instead of the watered down nothingness that we got.


Direct supporter or not, it sounds like he's not exactly against the notion of Obamacare:

Monker wrote:The country is not going to crumble with the passage of universal healthcare. At some point these prophets must be shown as false, and for the greedy, money hungry, people that they truly are. At some point this religion must be exposed for what it truly is - propaganda. At some point these followers need to wake up to these truths and realize they need to change their beliefs and rebuild conservative ideas into something other then a false religion.


Monker wrote:The American people have no idea what is 'really' being proposed. They are opposed to what the crazy right-wing conspiracy pinheads are misrepresenting. When the reality hits the fan, and there are no 'death panels' or huge tax increases, or all the other bullshit that has been puked forth by desperate conservatives, then I wonder what side is going to be on the defensive...since most of the public DOES want a public option for health care.
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Postby Monker » Sun Aug 22, 2010 6:34 am

Fact Finder wrote:
Prove it



ok..easy peasy


Monker said:
My opinion is they should have truly 'rammed a bill down their throats"...one that they wanted, instead of the watered down nothingness that we got.


:lol:

That's mighty proConstitutionalist of ya there Monker. Just ram it thru....damned the rights (enumerated in the Constitution) of Senators and Congressmen to say no. As I said, Mr. Consistency you are not. :shock:


That is so lame. What I am saying is they could have pushed an earlier version of the bill through with a simple majority vote with reconciliation in the Senate , instead of going for 2/3 vote. That is not removing any rights of any senator...they still get their vote and are able to whine and bitch all they want.
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Postby BobbyinTN » Sun Aug 22, 2010 8:24 am

Fact Finder wrote:Here's what the Muslims have in store for BobbyinTn if they get their way and dominate with Sharia Law.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_QRVCnn0AreA/R ... g_iran.jpg

http://www.google.com/images?q=Iran+han ... h%3A1&sa=2


Why even bring my name into this?

There's so called motherfuckin' Christians that would do the same thing. What's your point? Your hatred and intolerance only adds to it.

You limit one religion in America and you have to limit them all.

Hey "Fact Finder", even been divorced? Ever had pre-marital sex? If so, you'd be swinging right next to me buddy.

The fact that you even posted that shows what a fuck-wad you are.

I still say Muslims have every right to worship as they please in America, just as you have every right to continue to be stupid.
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Postby BobbyinTN » Sun Aug 22, 2010 8:25 am

Rip Rokken wrote:
Monker wrote:
Rip Rokken wrote:
Fact Finder wrote:The point is that they want to bring their way of life here and force it on us. Nothing but the US Armed Services stand in their way. Nothing!


Don't forget an ever-increasingly armed populace, especially thanks to rumors the Obama administration would screw with the 2nd Amendment.


LOL...that has been said about every Democratic president in my memory...and it never happens. It's never even proposed or talked about having the 2nd amendment change. Again, fear mongering, spreading rumors, and complete BS.
It's the Republicans who constantly want to amend the Constitution for this and that....but I don't read an uproar about that - and there should be.


I don't believe it's imminent, but the fact is gun sales are on the rise big time because a lot of people do believe it. Knee-jerk or not, rumors often have a huge effect on how the public behaves, whether it's purchasing firearms or moving all your investments to cash overnight. But not all the fear is completely unfounded, though. Remember Clinton's assault weapons ban which was later overturned. There's always someone with the desire and intent to monkey with the 2nd Amendment.


Nobody ever said Americans were the smartest people in the world.
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Postby BobbyinTN » Sun Aug 22, 2010 9:12 am

Fact Finder wrote:
Why even bring my name into this?


Because you were prominent in this thread.

There's so called motherfuckin' Christians that would do the same thing. What's your point? Your hatred and intolerance only adds to it.


I don't know any personally. I know there are a lot of hateful people in this world but I'm not one.

You limit one religion in America and you have to limit them all.


I don't consider Islam a religion. It is a State run militant, murderous cult hell bent on World Domination.

Hey "Fact Finder", even been divorced? Ever had pre-marital sex? If so, you'd be swinging right next to me buddy.


No and Yes and only if I succumb to a mindless appeasment mindset and get my ass kicked first.


The fact that you even posted that shows what a fuck-wad you are.


You can't handle the truth and thus attack the messenger, there are a lot of this type here.

I still say Muslims have every right to worship as they please in America, just as you have every right to continue to be stupid.


Considering that Atta and his buddies were worshiping their Religion on 9/11 I'd rethink that position if I were you.



So why not bring up others who were prominent in this conversation? You just wanted to fuck with the homosexual because you’re no better than those you criticize, you’re just one of “them” who thinks his way and his agenda is all that matters.

Guess what buddy, your opinion doesn’t mean shit about Islam, it is a religion and anything bad you can say about it can also be said about Christianity.

I think it’s you who can’t handle the truth. It’s easier to demonize than it is to understand.

Fringe elements are present in every religion. One is no better than the other. Any person who, in the name of their religion declares people should die, should be put to death themselves.
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Postby steveo777 » Sun Aug 22, 2010 9:15 am

BobbyinTN wrote:
Rip Rokken wrote:
Monker wrote:
Rip Rokken wrote:
Fact Finder wrote:The point is that they want to bring their way of life here and force it on us. Nothing but the US Armed Services stand in their way. Nothing!


Don't forget an ever-increasingly armed populace, especially thanks to rumors the Obama administration would screw with the 2nd Amendment.


LOL...that has been said about every Democratic president in my memory...and it never happens. It's never even proposed or talked about having the 2nd amendment change. Again, fear mongering, spreading rumors, and complete BS.
It's the Republicans who constantly want to amend the Constitution for this and that....but I don't read an uproar about that - and there should be.


I don't believe it's imminent, but the fact is gun sales are on the rise big time because a lot of people do believe it. Knee-jerk or not, rumors often have a huge effect on how the public behaves, whether it's purchasing firearms or moving all your investments to cash overnight. But not all the fear is completely unfounded, though. Remember Clinton's assault weapons ban which was later overturned. There's always someone with the desire and intent to monkey with the 2nd Amendment.


Nobody ever said Americans were the smartest people in the world.


But we are the most superior, as long as we protect America, so it can go on being American. :wink:
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Postby donnaplease » Sun Aug 22, 2010 9:28 am

This whole topic concerns me. Not the mosque stuff, because I know exactly how I feel about that. What I'm worried about is the progression of our country's liberal/progressive thinking to allow the 'freedom of religion' that grants folks the right to perhaps skirt the laws. IDK all the ins and outs of it, but with things like mormon's practicing polygamy, Jevovah's Witnesses refusing live saving medical treatments for their children because it's against their religion to accept blood products, and now talk of honoring sharia law in our country... One could ask why is it ok to allow Jehovah's witnesses to practice their religion which leads to death, but not allow muslims to stone a woman if that is one of the guidelines of their religion?

My belief of the constitutional meaning behind "freedom of religion" is that the government cannot force someone to practice a particular religion (ie a "state run" religion) like the church of England had during the time that the DoI and Constitution were drafted. Over the many years since those documents were introduced our people have manipulated them and twisted the words until it doesn't seem like they are the same documents.

This is a very slippery slope folks, and I have a feeling it's only gonna get worse. :?
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Postby Rip Rokken » Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:44 am

BobbyinTN wrote:
Rip Rokken wrote:
Monker wrote:
Rip Rokken wrote:
Fact Finder wrote:The point is that they want to bring their way of life here and force it on us. Nothing but the US Armed Services stand in their way. Nothing!


Don't forget an ever-increasingly armed populace, especially thanks to rumors the Obama administration would screw with the 2nd Amendment.


LOL...that has been said about every Democratic president in my memory...and it never happens. It's never even proposed or talked about having the 2nd amendment change. Again, fear mongering, spreading rumors, and complete BS.
It's the Republicans who constantly want to amend the Constitution for this and that....but I don't read an uproar about that - and there should be.


I don't believe it's imminent, but the fact is gun sales are on the rise big time because a lot of people do believe it. Knee-jerk or not, rumors often have a huge effect on how the public behaves, whether it's purchasing firearms or moving all your investments to cash overnight. But not all the fear is completely unfounded, though. Remember Clinton's assault weapons ban which was later overturned. There's always someone with the desire and intent to monkey with the 2nd Amendment.


Nobody ever said Americans were the smartest people in the world.


But at least we're ready to defend ourselves with a wide array of exotic tactical weaponry. :) Look what I can pick up at my friendly neighborhood Gander Mountain!

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Postby BobbyinTN » Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:40 pm

Fact Finder wrote:
So why not bring up others who were prominent in this conversation? You just wanted to fuck with the homosexual because you’re no better than those you criticize, you’re just one of “them” who thinks his way and his agenda is all that matters.




I was trying to educate people as to what happens to homosexuals in Sharia Law Governments. Notice I said Government not Religion. You are one of the first they are coming for if they ever achieve what they want. That's not my agenda my friend, it's theirs. In a funny way I kinda feel like I'm trying to help you. I'm sure you'll take that as condescending and all but oh well. No good deed goes unpunished. I learned that when I got married. :lol:



So, you honestly think the radical Muslims are gonna conquer America and I should be worried about Sharia Law? LMFAO!!
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Postby Monker » Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:53 am

What a hypocrite. In one paragraph he does the typical Republican fear mongering...trying to scare you in regards to Muslims. Later he says there are already over 100 mosques in the city.

Then there is the typical, "for radical Islamists, the mosque would become an icon of triumph, encouraging them in their challenge to our civilization." So benign to the fact that it is people like Newt, Sarah Palin, and the general Fox Republican Network who have publicized this and turned it into a negative thing. Prior to their meddling, it wasn't a negative thing, it was a positive thing.

It's a sad thing that people like Newt decide to exploit such things, but it is even more appalling that people buy into it, believe it, get angry at whoever they are told to be angry at, and believe whatever they are told...and they don't see that they are just being used and having their buttons pushed by a politician to get them angry to gain support for their cause and their party.

Fact Finder wrote:
We need to have the moral courage to denounce it. It is simply grotesque to erect a mosque at the site of the most visible and powerful symbol of the horrible consequences of radical Islamist ideology. Well-meaning Muslims, with common human sensitivity to the victims’ families, realize they have plenty of other places to gather and worship. But for radical Islamists, the mosque would become an icon of triumph, encouraging them in their challenge to our civilization.

Apologists for radical Islamist hypocrisy are trying to argue that we have to allow the construction of this mosque in order to prove America’s commitment to religious liberty. They say this despite the fact that there are already over 100 mosques in New York City.

In fact, they’re partially correct—this is a test of our commitment to religious liberty. It is a test to see if we have the resolve to face down an ideology that aims to destroy religious liberty in America, and every other freedom we hold dear.

Your friend,



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Postby Monker » Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:54 am

BobbyinTN wrote:
Fact Finder wrote:
So why not bring up others who were prominent in this conversation? You just wanted to fuck with the homosexual because you’re no better than those you criticize, you’re just one of “them” who thinks his way and his agenda is all that matters.




I was trying to educate people as to what happens to homosexuals in Sharia Law Governments. Notice I said Government not Religion. You are one of the first they are coming for if they ever achieve what they want. That's not my agenda my friend, it's theirs. In a funny way I kinda feel like I'm trying to help you. I'm sure you'll take that as condescending and all but oh well. No good deed goes unpunished. I learned that when I got married. :lol:



So, you honestly think the radical Muslims are gonna conquer America and I should be worried about Sharia Law? LMFAO!!


Exactly. The whole thing is fucking stupid. If Christianity can't 'conquer' America, Islam doesn't even have a slight chance.
Monker
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Postby Monker » Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:04 am

Geez, this program was going on LONG before 9/11. And, it's not just the middle east...but EVERY country is being monitored. Do we not remember Bush LEGALIZING this in the US in the mighty cause of gathering intelligence to fight terrorism? The truth is it was ALREADY HAPPENING...to make it 'legal', we were letting OTHER countries spy on our communications and we would simply take the raw data. There are centers all over the world set up specifically to spy on communications. "Thousands of communications" is laughable. It's in the millions. When you talk on your cell phone, or send an Email...it's most likely being scanned in some computer.

Anybody who believes this would not be going on if 9/11 did not happen is pretty damn naive.

Fact Finder wrote:
Enough is enough

Show some respect, human decency and stay away from ground zero

By CHARLES KRAUTHAMMER
Saturday, August 21, 2010 11:31 PM CDT



WASHINGTON — It’s hard to be an Obama sycophant these days. Your hero delivers a Ramadan speech roundly supporting the building of a mosque and Islamic center at Ground Zero in New York. Your heart swells and you’re moved to declare this President Obama’s finest hour, his act of greatest courage.

Alas, the next day, at a remove of 800 miles, Obama explains that he was only talking about the legality of the thing and not the wisdom - upon which he does not make, and will not make, any judgment.

You’re left looking like a fool because now Obama has said exactly nothing: No one disputes the right to build; the whole debate is about the propriety, the decency of doing so.

It takes no courage whatsoever to bask in the applause of a Muslim audience as you promise to stand stoutly for their right to build a mosque, giving the unmistakable impression that you endorse the idea. What takes courage is to then respectfully ask that audience to reflect upon the wisdom of the project, and to consider whether the imam’s alleged goal of interfaith understanding might not be better achieved by accepting the New York governor’s offer to help find another site.

Where the president flagged, however, the liberal intelligentsia stepped in with gusto, penning dozens of pro-mosque articles characterized by a frenzied unanimity, little resort to argument and a singular difficulty dealing with analogies.

The Atlantic’s Michael Kinsley was typical in arguing that the only possible grounds for opposing the ground zero mosque are bigotry or demagoguery. Well then, what about Pope John Paul II’s ordering the closing of the Carmelite convent at Auschwitz? Surely there can be no one more innocent of that crime than those devout nuns.

How does Kinsley explain this remarkable demonstration of sensitivity, this order to pray - but not there? He doesn’t even feign analysis. He simply asserts that the decision is something “I confess that I never did understand.”

That’s his Q.E.D.? Is he stumped or is he inviting us to choose between his moral authority and that of one of the towering moral figures of the 20th century?

At least Richard Cohen of The Washington Post tries to grapple with the issue of sanctity and sensitivity. The results, however, are not pretty.

He concedes that putting up a Japanese cultural center at Pearl Harbor would be offensive, but then dismisses the analogy to Ground Zero because 9/11 was merely “a rogue act, committed by 20 or so crazed samurai.”

Obtuseness of this magnitude can only be deliberate. These weren’t crazies. They were methodical, focused, steel-nerved operatives.

Nor were they freelance rogues. They were the leading, and most successful, edge of a worldwide movement of radical Islamists with cells in every continent, with worldwide financial and theological support, with a massive media and propaganda arm, and with an archipelago of local sympathizers, as in northwestern Pakistan, who protect and guard them.

Why is America fighting Predator wars in Pakistan and Yemen, surveilling thousands of conversations and financial transactions every day, and engaged in military operations against radical Muslims everywhere from the Philippines to Somalia - because of 19 crazies, all of whom died nine years ago?

Radical Islam is not, by any means, a majority of Islam. But with its financiers, clerics, propagandists, trainers, leaders, operatives and sympathizers - according to a conservative estimate, it commands the allegiance of 7 percent of Muslims, i.e., over 80 million souls - it is a very powerful strain within Islam. It has changed the course of nations and affected the lives of millions. It is the reason every airport in the West is an armed camp and every land is on constant alert.


Ground zero is the site of the most lethal attack of that worldwide movement, which consists entirely of Muslims, acts in the name of Islam and is deeply embedded within the Islamic world. These are regrettable facts, but facts they are. And that is why putting up a monument to Islam in this place is not just insensitive but provocative.

Just as the people of Japan today would not think of planting their flag at Pearl Harbor, despite the fact that no Japanese under the age of 85 has any possible responsibility for that infamy, representatives of contemporary Islam - the overwhelming majority of whose adherents are equally innocent of the infamy committed on 9/11 in their name - should exercise comparable respect for what even Obama calls hallowed ground.

Monker
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