NO WIN

[Boomchild]

Well, exactly. They're damned if they do and damned if they don't.

They can't NOT play CSA. Now, I can see why they don't play songs like "The Best of Times". I still think Tommy could sing it, and it'd be a great addition to the set.

In 10 years the argument has stalled in the same effin' place.

All true... but Alan, you can't say they haven't discussed it. I'm sure that JY would have no problem dropping CSA and every other DDY penned song from the set list if it were merely a "personal" versus "profession" decision. As for me? I hope and wish they would. It would force them to stand on their own and fully disown the history they disdain. I think what the double standard you are seeing is the same for the fans that it is for Styx. Styx doesn't really want to play Dennis' songs. The problem is they know they can't do that and have long-term viability. The *only* reason JY hasn't done it is because it would be a critical BUSINESS error. The Styx business is nothing without Dennis DeYoung. Say what you will about Babe, Roboto, First Time... whatever - the facts are that the Styx business begins and ends with Dennis' music. Nothing against Tommy for Blue Collar Man, Renegade or Too Much Time..... but those songs do not define Styx the way that Come Sail Away, Babe, Roboto and The Best of Times have. And it's that legacy that they have been trying to disavow for the last 11 years.

So just as much as the fans seem to want it both ways.... Styx does too. And the result is what we have. It's that balance of ditching what they can get away with in the name of maintaining profitability and any resemblance of relevance.

Well put. As for the current Styx, if they are such a better band now then before and they are "a force to be reckoned with" as some people put it, then they should be able to shed their past and pull out amazing new material to "shock and awe" the current fan base. Which of course is a fantasy.

[Boomchild]

I don't think Styx has a problem with Dennis' music as a whole.
I think they have a problem with 3 songs in particular.

More importantly, I think that the problem with Styx/Dennis had more to do with Dennis putting other things in the way
and just Dennis as an individual. Tommy did this once he joined Damn Yankees, so he doesn't get off scott free on this. But in 1996, when STYX reformed, ALL OF THEM were supposedly committed to STYX.

I think once Dennis got sick and then along with hunchback, and dalmations, and being fired before, and Suzanne, and his ... idiosyncrasies, and his reluctance to tour.... the band just had enough. If you want to work but one guy doesn't or seemingly puts up many roadblocks to working, what do you do?

You move on.

The band told Dennis "look, if you're not coming, we're moving on". DENNIS made the choice to call their bluff. The band made the choice to move on.

I don't get why it's such a big deal.

I think your forgetting one important point. DDY was ill at the time they were asking him to commit to something he knew he was not up to physically. Even including the other things you mention it was not fair to make him commit to something that he was not in a position to do. It appears that it was no coincidence that they chose to do it when he was ill. Gave them an upper hand so to speak.

[Boomchild]

I don't think Styx has a problem with Dennis' music as a whole.
I think they have a problem with 3 songs in particular.

More importantly, I think that the problem with Styx/Dennis had more to do with Dennis putting other things in the way
and just Dennis as an individual. Tommy did this once he joined Damn Yankees, so he doesn't get off scott free on this. But in 1996, when STYX reformed, ALL OF THEM were supposedly committed to STYX.

I think once Dennis got sick and then along with hunchback, and dalmations, and being fired before, and Suzanne, and his ... idiosyncrasies, and his reluctance to tour.... the band just had enough. If you want to work but one guy doesn't or seemingly puts up many roadblocks to working, what do you do?

You move on.

The band told Dennis "look, if you're not coming, we're moving on". DENNIS made the choice to call their bluff. The band made the choice to move on.

I don't get why it's such a big deal.

It's funny STYX is the only band ever to walk away from there signature guy after 2 great tours back to back and a 6 month rest time.
They waited for Perry for 2 years and they could not give Dennis 6 months
That's BS if ya ask me.

They waited for Dennis for a long time prior to that. They also waited for Shaw a long time prior to that.
Perry... he couldn't do the gig at that point.

I think it's more likely that during those times none of them made any hard commitments to anything regarding reformation of the band. I wouldn't expect any of them to just sit around if nothing was cast in stone. So I don't think you can single out any of them. Those comments seem to come from JY and CP, and in reality those two would be the least likely to have opportunities with a solo music career.

[Boomchild]

I don't think Styx has a problem with Dennis' music as a whole.
I think they have a problem with 3 songs in particular.

More importantly, I think that the problem with Styx/Dennis had more to do with Dennis putting other things in the way
and just Dennis as an individual. Tommy did this once he joined Damn Yankees, so he doesn't get off scott free on this. But in 1996, when STYX reformed, ALL OF THEM were supposedly committed to STYX.

I don't think so. There were already divisions in 1996 - as the story I've heard goes, they wanted to tour longer in '96, Dennis did not. Dennis did not want to do 1997, but they did it for someone in the band (we still don't know for sure who). Things were fine (relatively speaking) at least through when TS did his Seven Deadly Borders tour and Dennis came to the Chicago one. Things seem to go off the tracks after that. BNW was supposedly in development if you follow along the timeline for that.

I think once Dennis got sick and then along with hunchback, and dalmations, and being fired before, and Suzanne, and his ... idiosyncrasies, and his reluctance to tour.... the band just had enough. If you want to work but one guy doesn't or seemingly puts up many roadblocks to working, what do you do?

You move on.

The band told Dennis "look, if you're not coming, we're moving on". DENNIS made the choice to call their bluff. The band made the choice to move on.

I don't get why it's such a big deal.

You're mixing things up quite a bit here. Dalmatians has nothing to do with Dennis and his exit from Styx - that happened a full 10 years later. Dennis had committed to doing Hunchback I think *before* they had even committed or talked about to a '97 Styx tour. You don't do that thinking a major tour is going to come down in the middle of that.

1997 was a rough year for Dennis beyond the work stuff - Dad dying, etc. That'll beat the piss out of anyone. I know some don't believe he was sick and it's not something I'm going to argue at all here. When Susie Young (who I hope is doing well) got sick and JY left the tour for a few dates, you didn't see them fire JY.

Honestly, I do believe if they had taken off 1997, started fresh in '98 with BNW, you may have extended the shelf life of the band with Dennis, but ultimately the touring thing would have been an issue at some point.

As I've said numerous times, we've heard both sides. None of us on this board were there or in on the conversations. All we can do is speculate.

Yer right, I did mix the dalmations thing in there. ugh, sorry about that. With all the hoopla EVERY DAY here about Dennis and Styx, it's like he left yesterday. The touring thing... Dennis always hated touring. That's a known fact. So that would've been an issue and probably was at the time that the ultimatum came up. Regarding JY's deal, his was a bit more desperate than some kind of "light sensitivity" issue that at the time wasn't really verified, was it? Seemed like that didn't come out until the die had been cast. Jy's quote about "how were we supposed to figure out what was wrong" kind of illustrates that nobody could seem to figure it out and I have a hunch that "the doctor" was a bit of a hypochondriac at times. That's been stated before by someone. So maybe the band thought it was that kind of situation. Again, we weren't there.

Speaking of "already divisions in 1996" watch "Fooling Yourself" from the RTP DVD (it's on youtube too). At the beginning, watch the look Dennis shoots towards Tommy. Yikes!

It's silly to think that Dennis made up anything about his illness. Dennis has the personality to tell you exactly what he thinks and give you strait answers for why he feels that way. He has no need to make things up.