Good Dennis Interview

[Toph]

Apples to oranges. Rush has been a band putting out albums continually for almost 40 years.
Compare Styx's glory era 1977-1983 with Rush. Styx outsells them. Period. So, hits do matter.

In fact Styx has 5 multi-platinum albums to Rush's 4. So, when Styx hit it big, they hit it bigger than Rush.

So let's look at things in total numbers:
http://riaa.com/goldandplatinumdata.php?table=tblTopArt
Rush - 25 million
http://riaa.com/goldandplatinumdata.php ... rt&action=
Styx - 17.5

Case closed. Take number of albums, etc., and look at pure numbers - Rush has sold more with no appreciable hits outside of "Tom Sawyer". They have radio favorites, but nowhere near the amount of hits Styx had. Ever.

Multi-platinum is but one dimension, but since you want to look at sales, try to dispute this one. I'm not bending numbers now, nor did I do it before. The plain fact is: Rush is more successful in sales AND on tours than Styx now. In their heyday, Styx probably had that edge. But we're looking at the entire career here, and Styx loses this dog and pony show. Pretty much every Rush album has gone platinum over time, which is pretty impressive since most were not popular.

PS - Look at that list and see who has outsold Styx. Pretty interesting.

You and Alan should look more in depthly into these facts vs. just using them to suit your arguments.

Because I'm so anti-Styx

You are still missing the point. Compare Rush sales to Styx sales from 77-83. Styx wins. Styx was WAAAAAYYYYY more popular among the mainstream public than Rush. Rush always had its core audience who were comprised of very committed fans (and still are today), but Rush never had the appeal to mainstream America. Styx (and Journey and REO) were able to do that. They appealed to the 35 year old white guy and the 14 year old teenaged girl. Rush didn't.

Styx continues to release albums throughout the 80s and they have many more sales than 17.5M. They did it to themelves.

P.S. I would argue that Styx's gold/platinum status is even up to date. Cornerstone has sold over 3MM, yet it is still sitting as a 2.0 platinum level. I've read that Grand and PT are now over 4MM and they are still sitting at 3.0. So, not sure how accurate this is.

[Toph]

I believe Styx would still be where they are today. The only reason that Journey is a notch above them, REO and Foreigner is because of their anthems. In the '80s, Journey became the American version of Queen when it came to stadium rock.

But Styx had that title until 1981 and Escape. Journey came up to them with Escape, passed them with Frontiers, and cemented themselves by being active in the mid 80s with movie soundtrack songs and the ROR album. If Styx stays together, I would have liked to see a bit more competition between the two bands - it would have raised the bar on both - kind of like the early Beach Boys - Beatles back and forths. But like the Beach Boys - Styx screwed it up.

[Toph]

I think you are understating the effect MTV had for artists at the time. The ones that embraced it and saw the power of it seemed to have better success then others. I don't feel that Styx really embraced MTV which was another mistake on their part. Aside from the videos from KWH (which were not solely created for MTV) Styx didn't put much into the concept.

I grew up in the MTV generation, so no, I am not underestimating the power of MTV. Bon Jovi anyone? lol

Haven't We Been Here Before was supposed to be "that" video for Styx before it was basically killed as a single. It didn't have a KIlroy theme and was "stylized". You're right, Styx never embraced MTV properly, but I doubt it would have largely changed the outcome for them. Journey had Frontiers, which had lots of killer songs. The videos were not great (I mean, everyone has ridiculed "Separate Ways"), but the combo of killer songs and some OK, but not great, videos did help them more than the ones for Kilroy helped Styx.

Long term, we still would be where we are now in my opinion.

Thank You Tommy Shaw for killing that single. HWBHB, for all intents and purposes, could have SAVED Kilroy. Seriously. That is the irony here. It was almost self destructive on Tommy's part to kill that video and single (don't want to get into the psychology here, but maybe he WANTED the album to fail). HWBHB would have given Kilroy new life - its a top 10 single. Tommy has his biggest exposure in the band in some time. Recall that after his Pieces of Eight triumph, Tommy contributes 1 and only 1 song to the Styx hit catalog (TMTOMH). This one gets him out of his funk, Kilroy sells a lot more copies, people get happier. Maybe fences get mended. You know the JY comment "no deoderant like success".

That is just a string of self destructing moves that Tommy had on the band - starting with First Time

[StyxCollector]

You are still missing the point. Compare Rush sales to Styx sales from 77-83. Styx wins. Styx was WAAAAAYYYYY more popular among the mainstream public than Rush. Rush always had its core audience who were comprised of very committed fans (and still are today), but Rush never had the appeal to mainstream America. Styx (and Journey and REO) were able to do that. They appealed to the 35 year old white guy and the 14 year old teenaged girl. Rush didn't.

Styx continues to release albums throughout the 80s and they have many more sales than 17.5M. They did it to themelves.

P.S. I would argue that Styx's gold/platinum status is even up to date. Cornerstone has sold over 3MM, yet it is still sitting as a 2.0 platinum level. I've read that Grand and PT are now over 4MM and they are still sitting at 3.0. So, not sure how accurate this is.

Yawn. As I said, and others have, sales doesn't matter long term; it's audience retenion. So Styx sold more than Rush in 'the glory years'. Lots of people do when they are hot. Your argument holds no water since it is not formed in any reality. Rush shows were sausage fests (although that has changed greatly these days) - so what? The fact is Rush - a band that had no appreciable hits - maintained and I would argue grew their audience, while Styx did not. Rush by the end of the Moving Pictures tour was playing the same arenas as Styx, and never left them. They haven't downsized much, if any, in 30 years.

Zeppelin went away in what, 1980 - you don't see them having lost steam with only a handful of reunions over the years do you? The fact is, breakup of the classic lineup or not, Styx did not retain their audience like those other bands, nor did it have the mystique of a band like Zep to keep people intrigued.

Does this mean I don't like Styx? Hell no. Facts are facts. You're getting stuck on numbers when really at this point, it no longer matters. Neither Rush or Styx are viable recording concerns that will sell multiplatnium albums anymore.

I don't know why you're hell bent on trying to think that Styx would have had this amazing career for the past 30 years. As it is, it's been pretty good for everyone involved. And we all still get to see Styx or Dennis. Zep fans get Jason Bonham + a cover band.

[Toph]

You are still missing the point. Compare Rush sales to Styx sales from 77-83. Styx wins. Styx was WAAAAAYYYYY more popular among the mainstream public than Rush. Rush always had its core audience who were comprised of very committed fans (and still are today), but Rush never had the appeal to mainstream America. Styx (and Journey and REO) were able to do that. They appealed to the 35 year old white guy and the 14 year old teenaged girl. Rush didn't.

Styx continues to release albums throughout the 80s and they have many more sales than 17.5M. They did it to themelves.

P.S. I would argue that Styx's gold/platinum status is even up to date. Cornerstone has sold over 3MM, yet it is still sitting as a 2.0 platinum level. I've read that Grand and PT are now over 4MM and they are still sitting at 3.0. So, not sure how accurate this is.

Yawn. As I said, and others have, sales doesn't matter long term; it's audience retenion. So Styx sold more than Rush in 'the glory years'. Lots of people do when they are hot. Your argument holds no water since it is not formed in any reality. Rush shows were sausage fests (although that has changed greatly these days) - so what? The fact is Rush - a band that had no appreciable hits - maintained and I would argue grew their audience, while Styx did not. Rush by the end of the Moving Pictures tour was playing the same arenas as Styx, and never left them. They haven't downsized much, if any, in 30 years.

Zeppelin went away in what, 1980 - you don't see them having lost steam with only a handful of reunions over the years do you? The fact is, breakup of the classic lineup or not, Styx did not retain their audience like those other bands, nor did it have the mystique of a band like Zep to keep people intrigued.

Does this mean I don't like Styx? Hell no. Facts are facts. You're getting stuck on numbers when really at this point, it no longer matters. Neither Rush or Styx are viable recording concerns that will sell multiplatnium albums anymore.

I don't know why you're hell bent on trying to think that Styx would have had this amazing career for the past 30 years. As it is, it's been pretty good for everyone involved. And we all still get to see Styx or Dennis. Zep fans get Jason Bonham + a cover band.

No, you don't seem to get the point. Styx didn't participate in the mid 1980s and on. Rush did. Rush continued to put out album after album after album.S tyx did not. Styx also was hurt by the fact that their record company basically did not see the value of a catalog sale (unlike Journey's) and therefore they didn't push the old albums (i.e. another reason that we don't have any remasters of any Styx album beyond Greatest Hits packages.). Was the reason the record company stop selling Stxyx was because there wasn't a Styx to sell? Would the record company have acted differently if Styx continues to put out albums? Probably so! None of us, not even the great Allen, knows what would have happened had Styx stayed together in the 80s. But my argument has just as much water as yours. Styx very likely would have enjoyed a great deal of success had they stayed together IMO.

Its a valid point, and your holier than thou attitude that "I know more about the music business than anyyone because I am a two bit bass player and I have all my 'off the record' sources" gets a bit tiresome....

[yogi]

They didnt retain their 'hardcore' audience because they went 'soft'. That is the point that I have been trying to make since I saw Rush play almost 2 months ago.

My brother and some of my friends were 'hard core' Styx fans up until Cornerstone. They owned the Wooden Nickel albums everything up until Babe hit the radio waves. Off of Cornerstone they could stomach Love In The Midnight, Lights, Eddie and Borrowed Time. The rest of the album they thought was Starland Vocal Band trash.

Did I like Cornerstone?? Hell yes I did!!! But they lost many of their hard core fans with that album. They picked up many more 'new' fans but these fans did not have the staying power of the hard core fans that they lost when they shifted musical directions after Pieces Of Eight.

I too think that they got a few of their hard cores back with Paradise Theatre, but they lost em all forever with the release of the techno sounding disco thumping Please Let It End Kilroy album.

Thats my take on it. They did get many many new fans but they were fair weather fans. Styx picked up the fans The Captain & Tenille and The Starland Vocal Band had lost along the way. Styx was edgier then The Captain & Starland and their fans loved this. 'Helen Reddy be damned we now have Styx'! Still, Styx lost their die hards, and picked up the 'fair weather, tag along, tie a yellow ribbon, I like you when you are good and popular and only then' type fans.

That is why they now must play third bill at Goat Fest in Mulberry Switzerland, and Rush packs em in anywhere and everywhere.

[brywool]

They didnt retain their 'hardcore' audience because they went 'soft'. That is the point that I have been trying to make since I saw Rush play almost 2 months ago.

My brother and some of my friends were 'hard core' Styx fans up until Cornerstone. They owned the Wooden Nickel albums everything up until Babe hit the radio waves. Off of Cornerstone they could stomach Love In The Midnight, Lights, Eddie and Borrowed Time. The rest of the album they thought was Starland Vocal Band trash.

Did I like Cornerstone?? Hell yes I did!!! But they lost many of their hard core fans with that album. They picked up many more 'new' fans but these fans did not have the staying power of the hard core fans that they lost when they shifted musical directions after Pieces Of Eight.

I too think that they got a few of their hard cores back with Paradise Theatre, but they lost em all forever with the release of the techno sounding disco thumping Please Let It End Kilroy album.

Thats my take on it. They did get many many new fans but they were fair weather fans. Styx picked up the fans The Captain & Tenille and The Starland Vocal Band had lost along the way. Styx was edgier then The Captain & Starland and their fans loved this. 'Helen Reddy be damned we now have Styx'! Still, Styx lost their die hards, and picked up the 'fair weather, tag along, tie a yellow ribbon, I like you when you are good and popular and only then' type fans.

That is why they now must play third bill at Goat Fest in Mulberry Switzerland, and Rush packs em in anywhere and everywhere.

+1 Million.

That is exactly what happened to Styx. Dennis would never admit it, but while Styx gained a lotta lady fans with softer hit singles, those that had been following them and who became hardcore fans found a lot to not like, so they bailed. Consequently, as soon as the soft rock tunes were off the charts, and after Tommy bailed, the ladies bailed on the band as well. So it doubly-dented their fanbase. Not sure why this is such a hard pill for some to swallow, but it's exactly what happened.

The BEST stuff Dennis does is the stuff that provoked thought. From "Suite Madame Blue" to "Grand Illusion" to "Rocking the Paradise" to "Boomchild"- that was his best stuff. Great lyrics on those songs and not just "I love you, the Sky is Blue" stuff. He's (thankfully) brought a lot of that back on 100 Years from Now. Maybe, had he done then instead of now, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Granted, there'd have still been the personality conflicts (probably), but still, I think REAL Styx fans would've appreciated it and hung with the band. Personally, I thought the concept that Kilroy had was a good one. I really do. I loved the whole Censorship, MMM stuff. Where it fell flat was that most of the songs on the album were subpar (from all of em, not just Dennis). "Don't Let It End", "Get Through This Night" are the best of the lot and those are the slow tunes. "High Time" was a terrible tune. "Heavy Metal Poisoning" was funny in the context of the rock opera, but outside of that, nobody got it. You shouldn't have to have a score card to figure out what the heck an album's about. Pink Floyd was able to pull it off and Styx did too (loosely) with PT and GI, but Kilroy was just too different for peeps.

Not saying a band can't do love songs. I love a good love songs. But for Dennis, that became ALL he did. Those types of songs he did pre-Babe, like Lady were better songs that packed a punch. Babe and First Time did NOT pack any kind of punch, so the hardcores found nothing to dig. By the time they got back together, Grunge had permanently F'd up the landscape, so they didn't have a chance to comeback.

[StyxCollector]

No, you don't seem to get the point. Styx didn't participate in the mid 1980s and on. Rush did. Rush continued to put out album after album after album.S tyx did not. Styx also was hurt by the fact that their record company basically did not see the value of a catalog sale (unlike Journey's) and therefore they didn't push the old albums (i.e. another reason that we don't have any remasters of any Styx album beyond Greatest Hits packages.). Was the reason the record company stop selling Stxyx was because there wasn't a Styx to sell? Would the record company have acted differently if Styx continues to put out albums? Probably so! None of us, not even the great Allen, knows what would have happened had Styx stayed together in the 80s. But my argument has just as much water as yours. Styx very likely would have enjoyed a great deal of success had they stayed together IMO.

Its a valid point, and your holier than thou attitude that "I know more about the music business than anyyone because I am a two bit bass player and I have all my 'off the record' sources" gets a bit tiresome....

Er, I do get it. Styx went away from 1984 - 1990. Then from 1991 - 1995 (or so). In the span of those 10 years, Rush released 6 studio albums (GUP, PoW, HYF, Presto, RTB, and Counterparts), and Styx 1. But Styx hanging around I still contend, as others are here, that Styx would still be where they are today with or without being active and together from 1984 - 1995. Your opinion is no less valid than mine, but it's just that: an opinion. And opinions are just like assholes: everyone's got one.

I think the facts are pretty clear:
1. The band was pissed off enough at Dennis in 1979, they fired him.
2. They took him back, but tensions still were there.
3. Styx went their separate ways in 1984 after the KWH tour and CITA (if you count the timeline of Tommy's departure).
4. Styx tried to get back together at least once, if not twice (Sterling's book is not handy as I'm 35,000 feet in the air right now) in the 1987-1988 period. It failed due to lawyers and old tensions/wounds which were not healed. Hence we got Styx sans Shaw and Damn Yankees.

Based on those facts is what I base my opinion on. Sure, it's fun to play "what if", but the facts just don't support Styx being a happy unit post-Kilroy until now AND their star would have risen higher in the 80s. The way the music industry was going - MTV or not - was not towards classic rock. Now, maybe if you look at a band like the Moody Blues who had that odd hits with "I Know Your're Out There Somewhere" and "Your Wildest Dreams" that could have worked for them, but it was definitely not a guitar oriented sound that ... well, we know where that got them in 1998/9. Just saying. Is it impossible they would have had a hit or two? No. Even REO had hits with songs like "Here WIth Me" and "In My Dreams", but they were lighter pop/ballady. And we all know how that story has ended up.

Look, as for remasters, why Universal has not made them - no one will really know, but to say it was because Styx wasn't a concern is 100% wrong as they were announced in 1995. The hits packages sold well. Lesser bands who are long dead have had their catalogs remastered. So using the "Styx wasn't around so the record company screwed them by not using the evergreen catalog" argument doesn't fly with Styx. There's something deeper which made the record comansy say, "Fuck it" even after announcing it.

And you completely ignored my Zeppelin comment. They have been dead, kaput, finished, nada for 30 years as a touring and general concern outside of a few one offs (and I don't count the Plant/Page project which was brief). Time hasn't faded their mystique whatsoever, and at the end they were (gasp!) using things like synths and maybe didn't rock as hard. Styx was one of the biggest bands in the USA in that 1979 - 1981 timeframe, yet why has their star faded and Zep hasn't? It's a legitimate question which could have a million answers.

And where did I drag anything like off the record sources into this posting? Oh that's right I didn't. Maybe if you dealt a bit more in real life instead of worrying about Styx you'd be a happier camper. Oh, and maybe someday you'll learn how to read and spell my name right.

[cittadeeno23]

Great post Bry, you are right on the money. I was one of the hardcore fans who was unhappy at the time with the change of direction of the band starting with Cornerstone, but I stuck with them because I loved them so much. I would have been much happier if they had kept doing the kind of music they were doing up until P08. But I cannot blame Dennis for trying to bring the band more fame. The hits from
Cornerstone, Paradise and Kilroy brought them much POP chart success. It turned off the hardcore fans and brought in new pop fans.

Yogi also has a good point about them probably losing more hard core fans than gaining new POP fans when they came out with Cornerstone.
The group I hung out with had the same exact reaction as Yogi's brother's friends. Most of my buddies were turned off and decided to jump on the Van Halen bandwagon! I remember the first time I heard BABE and kept thinking to myself "when is this song going to pick up speed"???

As far as Kilroy is concerned I agree on your point there also. The concept was great. The censorship theme and especially the line Dennis said in the Kilroy movie.... "It's not the music that's in question, it's the freedom of expression".

The whole story was great and ahead of it's time. Take a look at the real America now. This shit is happening! Our rights are being taken away EVERY day! Dennis was dead on!

The problem with Kilroy was the music. If the music had been along the same lines as say P08 or GI, it could have been one of the greatest concept albums of all time.

And as far as the band possibly gaining more fame had they somehow stayed together in the 80's, I do still think they would have had more success had they been getting along and had they been on the same page musically. And I do think MTV would have played a role in that success. So I guess we can just agree to disagree on that point. But It's kind of a moot point. Allan is correct. The band was dead internally. The friction was already there since 1979. Tommy was done and wanted out and there was probably no fixing it. And Dennis was correct in deciding not to go forward without Tommy. It just would not have been the same without him.

[yogi]

I believe that they gained far more pop fans then they lost hard core fans.

The way I see it is the hard core fans will stay with you but the fair weather/ flavor of the month fans are gone as soon as the next big thing hits. In my opinion that is what happened to Styx.

[Toph]

They didnt retain their 'hardcore' audience because they went 'soft'. That is the point that I have been trying to make since I saw Rush play almost 2 months ago.

My brother and some of my friends were 'hard core' Styx fans up until Cornerstone. They owned the Wooden Nickel albums everything up until Babe hit the radio waves. Off of Cornerstone they could stomach Love In The Midnight, Lights, Eddie and Borrowed Time. The rest of the album they thought was Starland Vocal Band trash.

Did I like Cornerstone?? Hell yes I did!!! But they lost many of their hard core fans with that album. They picked up many more 'new' fans but these fans did not have the staying power of the hard core fans that they lost when they shifted musical directions after Pieces Of Eight.

I too think that they got a few of their hard cores back with Paradise Theatre, but they lost em all forever with the release of the techno sounding disco thumping Please Let It End Kilroy album.

Thats my take on it. They did get many many new fans but they were fair weather fans. Styx picked up the fans The Captain & Tenille and The Starland Vocal Band had lost along the way. Styx was edgier then The Captain & Starland and their fans loved this. 'Helen Reddy be damned we now have Styx'! Still, Styx lost their die hards, and picked up the 'fair weather, tag along, tie a yellow ribbon, I like you when you are good and popular and only then' type fans.

That is why they now must play third bill at Goat Fest in Mulberry Switzerland, and Rush packs em in anywhere and everywhere.

The success of Journey in the 1980s after they went "soft" completely blows this argument. Yogi, you love to use unsubstantiated stories like..."my metal head friends stopped liking Styx." Well good for them! Seems to me that Styx had more record sales post Pieces than pre-Pieces. Those are the numbers and the fats.

[Toph]

They didnt retain their 'hardcore' audience because they went 'soft'. That is the point that I have been trying to make since I saw Rush play almost 2 months ago.

My brother and some of my friends were 'hard core' Styx fans up until Cornerstone. They owned the Wooden Nickel albums everything up until Babe hit the radio waves. Off of Cornerstone they could stomach Love In The Midnight, Lights, Eddie and Borrowed Time. The rest of the album they thought was Starland Vocal Band trash.

Did I like Cornerstone?? Hell yes I did!!! But they lost many of their hard core fans with that album. They picked up many more 'new' fans but these fans did not have the staying power of the hard core fans that they lost when they shifted musical directions after Pieces Of Eight.

I too think that they got a few of their hard cores back with Paradise Theatre, but they lost em all forever with the release of the techno sounding disco thumping Please Let It End Kilroy album.

Thats my take on it. They did get many many new fans but they were fair weather fans. Styx picked up the fans The Captain & Tenille and The Starland Vocal Band had lost along the way. Styx was edgier then The Captain & Starland and their fans loved this. 'Helen Reddy be damned we now have Styx'! Still, Styx lost their die hards, and picked up the 'fair weather, tag along, tie a yellow ribbon, I like you when you are good and popular and only then' type fans.

That is why they now must play third bill at Goat Fest in Mulberry Switzerland, and Rush packs em in anywhere and everywhere.

+1 Million.

That is exactly what happened to Styx. Dennis would never admit it, but while Styx gained a lotta lady fans with softer hit singles, those that had been following them and who became hardcore fans found a lot to not like, so they bailed. Consequently, as soon as the soft rock tunes were off the charts, and after Tommy bailed, the ladies bailed on the band as well. So it doubly-dented their fanbase. Not sure why this is such a hard pill for some to swallow, but it's exactly what happened.

The BEST stuff Dennis does is the stuff that provoked thought. From "Suite Madame Blue" to "Grand Illusion" to "Rocking the Paradise" to "Boomchild"- that was his best stuff. Great lyrics on those songs and not just "I love you, the Sky is Blue" stuff. He's (thankfully) brought a lot of that back on 100 Years from Now. Maybe, had he done then instead of now, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Granted, there'd have still been the personality conflicts (probably), but still, I think REAL Styx fans would've appreciated it and hung with the band. Personally, I thought the concept that Kilroy had was a good one. I really do. I loved the whole Censorship, MMM stuff. Where it fell flat was that most of the songs on the album were subpar (from all of em, not just Dennis). "Don't Let It End", "Get Through This Night" are the best of the lot and those are the slow tunes. "High Time" was a terrible tune. "Heavy Metal Poisoning" was funny in the context of the rock opera, but outside of that, nobody got it. You shouldn't have to have a score card to figure out what the heck an album's about. Pink Floyd was able to pull it off and Styx did too (loosely) with PT and GI, but Kilroy was just too different for peeps.

Not saying a band can't do love songs. I love a good love songs. But for Dennis, that became ALL he did. Those types of songs he did pre-Babe, like Lady were better songs that packed a punch. Babe and First Time did NOT pack any kind of punch, so the hardcores found nothing to dig. By the time they got back together, Grunge had permanently F'd up the landscape, so they didn't have a chance to comeback.

You talk out of both sides of your mouth. When did he "only" do love songs? Paradise? no. Kilroy? No. You equate your personal tastes with the public and your personal tastes don't agree with the public. Again, Journey's success after they went soft blows your arguement.

[Toph]

Great post Bry, you are right on the money. I was one of the hardcore fans who was unhappy at the time with the change of direction of the band starting with Cornerstone, but I stuck with them because I loved them so much. I would have been much happier if they had kept doing the kind of music they were doing up until P08. But I cannot blame Dennis for trying to bring the band more fame. The hits from
Cornerstone, Paradise and Kilroy brought them much POP chart success. It turned off the hardcore fans and brought in new pop fans.

Yogi also has a good point about them probably losing more hard core fans than gaining new POP fans when they came out with Cornerstone.
The group I hung out with had the same exact reaction as Yogi's brother's friends. Most of my buddies were turned off and decided to jump on the Van Halen bandwagon! I remember the first time I heard BABE and kept thinking to myself "when is this song going to pick up speed"???

As far as Kilroy is concerned I agree on your point there also. The concept was great. The censorship theme and especially the line Dennis said in the Kilroy movie.... "It's not the music that's in question, it's the freedom of expression".

The whole story was great and ahead of it's time. Take a look at the real America now. This shit is happening! Our rights are being taken away EVERY day! Dennis was dead on!

The problem with Kilroy was the music. If the music had been along the same lines as say P08 or GI, it could have been one of the greatest concept albums of all time.

And as far as the band possibly gaining more fame had they somehow stayed together in the 80's, I do still think they would have had more success had they been getting along and had they been on the same page musically. And I do think MTV would have played a role in that success. So I guess we can just agree to disagree on that point. But It's kind of a moot point. Allan is correct. The band was dead internally. The friction was already there since 1979. Tommy was done and wanted out and there was probably no fixing it. And Dennis was correct in deciding not to go forward without Tommy. It just would not have been the same without him.

Again, Journey BLOWS these arguments. Journey got softer AND more sucessful. IF Styx does Grand Illusion 3 ( assuming P08 was GI 2), then you go the way of Kansas - 2 really big albums in 1977 and 1978 and then NOTHING afterwards. No reall successes whatsoever. The change helped prolong Styx's career into the early 80s and if Tommy Shaw becomes less of a drugged out wacko, potentially into the late 80s.

[Toph]

No, you don't seem to get the point. Styx didn't participate in the mid 1980s and on. Rush did. Rush continued to put out album after album after album.S tyx did not. Styx also was hurt by the fact that their record company basically did not see the value of a catalog sale (unlike Journey's) and therefore they didn't push the old albums (i.e. another reason that we don't have any remasters of any Styx album beyond Greatest Hits packages.). Was the reason the record company stop selling Stxyx was because there wasn't a Styx to sell? Would the record company have acted differently if Styx continues to put out albums? Probably so! None of us, not even the great Allen, knows what would have happened had Styx stayed together in the 80s. But my argument has just as much water as yours. Styx very likely would have enjoyed a great deal of success had they stayed together IMO.

Its a valid point, and your holier than thou attitude that "I know more about the music business than anyyone because I am a two bit bass player and I have all my 'off the record' sources" gets a bit tiresome....

Er, I do get it. Styx went away from 1984 - 1990. Then from 1991 - 1995 (or so). In the span of those 10 years, Rush released 6 studio albums (GUP, PoW, HYF, Presto, RTB, and Counterparts), and Styx 1. But Styx hanging around I still contend, as others are here, that Styx would still be where they are today with or without being active and together from 1984 - 1995. Your opinion is no less valid than mine, but it's just that: an opinion. And opinions are just like assholes: everyone's got one.

I think the facts are pretty clear:
1. The band was pissed off enough at Dennis in 1979, they fired him.
2. They took him back, but tensions still were there.
3. Styx went their separate ways in 1984 after the KWH tour and CITA (if you count the timeline of Tommy's departure).
4. Styx tried to get back together at least once, if not twice (Sterling's book is not handy as I'm 35,000 feet in the air right now) in the 1987-1988 period. It failed due to lawyers and old tensions/wounds which were not healed. Hence we got Styx sans Shaw and Damn Yankees.

Based on those facts is what I base my opinion on. Sure, it's fun to play "what if", but the facts just don't support Styx being a happy unit post-Kilroy until now AND their star would have risen higher in the 80s. The way the music industry was going - MTV or not - was not towards classic rock. Now, maybe if you look at a band like the Moody Blues who had that odd hits with "I Know Your're Out There Somewhere" and "Your Wildest Dreams" that could have worked for them, but it was definitely not a guitar oriented sound that ... well, we know where that got them in 1998/9. Just saying. Is it impossible they would have had a hit or two? No. Even REO had hits with songs like "Here WIth Me" and "In My Dreams", but they were lighter pop/ballady. And we all know how that story has ended up.

Look, as for remasters, why Universal has not made them - no one will really know, but to say it was because Styx wasn't a concern is 100% wrong as they were announced in 1995. The hits packages sold well. Lesser bands who are long dead have had their catalogs remastered. So using the "Styx wasn't around so the record company screwed them by not using the evergreen catalog" argument doesn't fly with Styx. There's something deeper which made the record comansy say, "Fuck it" even after announcing it.

And you completely ignored my Zeppelin comment. They have been dead, kaput, finished, nada for 30 years as a touring and general concern outside of a few one offs (and I don't count the Plant/Page project which was brief). Time hasn't faded their mystique whatsoever, and at the end they were (gasp!) using things like synths and maybe didn't rock as hard. Styx was one of the biggest bands in the USA in that 1979 - 1981 timeframe, yet why has their star faded and Zep hasn't? It's a legitimate question which could have a million answers.

And where did I drag anything like off the record sources into this posting? Oh that's right I didn't. Maybe if you dealt a bit more in real life instead of worrying about Styx you'd be a happier camper. Oh, and maybe someday you'll learn how to read and spell my name right.

And you choose to ignore my facts, ALLEN> Do you not think Styx puts out an album with songs from Desert Moon and GWG that it isn't successful? It sure as hell is. JOURNEY did it. So this constant bemoaning of some of you people who really think Styx is some heavy metal band it ludicrous. The switch didn't hurt Styx. It caused Styx to extend their career into the 80s. Journey did it and it not only propelled Journey ahead of Styx, but it made them arguably to be the biggest band of the 1980s. Period.
DDY was dead on the money - Styx had to change. Journey did and it worked wonders. Of course, DDY's strategy depended on a Tommy Shaw actually contributing solid material, not being a coke head and wacked out of his mind.

[yogi]

I agree with you Toph BUT what I am saying is that they lost many of their Die Hard fans when they went 'soft'.

They picked up FAR more fans but the fans that they picked up were the fair weather fans.

I was a die hard and I stayed with them. Still I am betting most of their die hard fans left them when they changed directions after Pieces Of Eight. I know 6 I can name, that NEVER purchased a Styx album after Pieces Of Eight. Up till then they all had Styx ll, Best Of Styx, Equinox, Crystal Ball, The Grand Illusion & Pieces Of Eight. If they did purchase Cornerstone they trashed it soon after.

These were not 'metal heads' Styx was never a metal band. But Styx was also were not a pop/bubble gum band. Cornerstone ushered that era in and also the era of Styx changing with the times. Paradise Theatre was great but still there was to many horns and too many non Grand Illusion type of songs. And Kilroy was nothing more than a techno album made up of really bad songs. Concept was great but the songs sucked.

At any rate I honestly believe the fans Styx picked up during the Cornerstone + era they lost just as quickly. Add to this that they had already lost many of their die hards. The die hard fans would still be with them today.

This is a main reason why they can only draw 1500 if they play a solo bill.

Go to a Rush concert and you will see what I mean.

P.S. Journey changed direction once they got Steve Perry. Infinity sounds an aweful lot like Escape to me.

[StyxCollector]

And you choose to ignore my facts, ALLEN> Do you not think Styx puts out an album with songs from Desert Moon and GWG that it isn't successful? It sure as hell is. JOURNEY did it. So this constant bemoaning of some of you people who really think Styx is some heavy metal band it ludicrous. The switch didn't hurt Styx. It caused Styx to extend their career into the 80s. Journey did it and it not only propelled Journey ahead of Styx, but it made them arguably to be the biggest band of the 1980s. Period.
DDY was dead on the money - Styx had to change. Journey did and it worked wonders. Of course, DDY's strategy depended on a Tommy Shaw actually contributing solid material, not being a coke head and wacked out of his mind.

Toofer, where in the hell did I ever say Styx was a heavy metal band? I think you have me confused with someone else. When I talk about things like Jovi, it was a sea change in music tastes of the public partially created by MTV and radio. I don't think Journey was the biggest band of the 80s. I'd put a few artists like Springsteen, Jovi, or U2 ahead of them. Journey had great success, but artist/band of the decade? No.

Styx did change in 1979. I didn't mind it, although Cornerstone is one of my least favorite Styx albums, but I do like PT and KWH. Styx - at Dennis' direction - changed gears and it fractured the band. The rest of the band was unwilling to go on with that direction any further.

Desert Moon did not crack the beyond #10 as a single and #24 as an album. GWG fared much worse. Those are facts (I really have yet to see much from you there). Even if they had been Styx songs they would not have done much better. Styx would have gone through the 80s more like a lamb if you base what could have been on their solo projects, not out like a lion. Journey made a sea change by hiring Perry in 77/78 and didn't hit critical mass until Cain joined and they had Escape. THAT was their big difference. Cain/Perry as a songwriting team was hard to argue with on Escape and Frontiers. They shed their prog roots in 76/77, but you don't see people clamoring for their harder stuff like many Styx fans do. Journey went straight into 5-minute and under songs for radio play and didn't look back.

And even Journey couldn't sustain it - Schon openly admits he hates that ROR period. So in the Journey-Styx race, Journey had exactly ONE more studio album than Styx, and petered out only a few years after Styx in the 80s as a concern until about 1995/6. The fact is, Journey just had more hits than Styx. It doesn't make them necessarily a better band.

I give you an E for effort, Terf.

[cittadeeno23]

Well, here is a fact. The band broke up right at the height of their fame. They just had 5 straight Multi-Platinum albums in a 7 year period.
And then they broke up and went away for a LONG time!
So none of us will ever really know what would have happened had they been getting along personally and stayed together.


But as far as their music style goes, in my observations and my opinion most Styx fans tended to fall into one of two catagories back then:
The hardcore fans who followed them from the early 70's (like myself) tended to like the harder edged progressive style of music they did up until P08, and the fans who jumped on the bandwagon after the band became really famous tended to like the pop style type of music they put out later. I'm not saying all fans fall into this catagory, just most of the ones I encountered or knew personally.
I would rather listen to Castle Walls or Queen of Spades any day over Babe or Don't let it end.
But one thing I think that is not arguable is that Styx had the talent to make either style of music sound really good. And not too many bands can pull that off.

[yogi]

Good Post Wilber!!!

[Boomchild]

I think you are understating the effect MTV had for artists at the time. The ones that embraced it and saw the power of it seemed to have better success then others. I don't feel that Styx really embraced MTV which was another mistake on their part. Aside from the videos from KWH (which were not solely created for MTV) Styx didn't put much into the concept.

I grew up in the MTV generation, so no, I am not underestimating the power of MTV. Bon Jovi anyone? lol

Haven't We Been Here Before was supposed to be "that" video for Styx before it was basically killed as a single. It didn't have a KIlroy theme and was "stylized". You're right, Styx never embraced MTV properly, but I doubt it would have largely changed the outcome for them. Journey had Frontiers, which had lots of killer songs. The videos were not great (I mean, everyone has ridiculed "Separate Ways"), but the combo of killer songs and some OK, but not great, videos did help them more than the ones for Kilroy helped Styx.

Long term, we still would be where we are now in my opinion.

I can agree that it may not have affected the break up. But if they embraced MTV properly I believe their songs would have charted better and increased their over all album sales.

[Boomchild]

Well, here is a fact. The band broke up right at the height of their fame. They just had 5 straight Multi-Platinum albums in a 7 year period.
And then they broke up and went away for a LONG time!
So none of us will ever really know what would have happened had they been getting along personally and stayed together.


But as far as their music style goes, in my observations and my opinion most Styx fans tended to fall into one of two catagories back then:
The hardcore fans who followed them from the early 70's (like myself) tended to like the harder edged progressive style of music they did up until P08, and the fans who jumped on the bandwagon after the band became really famous tended to like the pop style type of music they put out later. I'm not saying all fans fall into this catagory, just most of the ones I encountered or knew personally.
I would rather listen to Castle Walls or Queen of Spades any day over Babe or Don't let it end.
But one thing I think that is not arguable is that Styx had the talent to make either style of music sound really good. And not too many bands can pull that off.

All things considered I feel that it was a combination of things that led to where Styx ended up. The tension between members affected their ability to create the better music of their past. The loss of some fans when they changed their direction. Which I believe is some what over stated. The fans they gained when they started releasing ballads as singles may have been the "fair weather" type fans. Ultimately though the main reason to me was the simple fact that the tension and egos of the band members caused them to lose focus and maintain the retention of their fan base. For the most part they did it to themselves.

[Boomchild]

I think you are understating the effect MTV had for artists at the time. The ones that embraced it and saw the power of it seemed to have better success then others. I don't feel that Styx really embraced MTV which was another mistake on their part. Aside from the videos from KWH (which were not solely created for MTV) Styx didn't put much into the concept.

I grew up in the MTV generation, so no, I am not underestimating the power of MTV. Bon Jovi anyone? lol

Haven't We Been Here Before was supposed to be "that" video for Styx before it was basically killed as a single. It didn't have a KIlroy theme and was "stylized". You're right, Styx never embraced MTV properly, but I doubt it would have largely changed the outcome for them. Journey had Frontiers, which had lots of killer songs. The videos were not great (I mean, everyone has ridiculed "Separate Ways"), but the combo of killer songs and some OK, but not great, videos did help them more than the ones for Kilroy helped Styx.

Long term, we still would be where we are now in my opinion.

Thank You Tommy Shaw for killing that single. HWBHB, for all intents and purposes, could have SAVED Kilroy. Seriously. That is the irony here. It was almost self destructive on Tommy's part to kill that video and single (don't want to get into the psychology here, but maybe he WANTED the album to fail). HWBHB would have given Kilroy new life - its a top 10 single. Tommy has his biggest exposure in the band in some time. Recall that after his Pieces of Eight triumph, Tommy contributes 1 and only 1 song to the Styx hit catalog (TMTOMH). This one gets him out of his funk, Kilroy sells a lot more copies, people get happier. Maybe fences get mended. You know the JY comment "no deoderant like success".

That is just a string of self destructing moves that Tommy had on the band - starting with First Time

Seems like JY didn't get enough deodorant!

[brywool]

You talk out of both sides of your mouth. When did he "only" do love songs? Paradise? no. Kilroy? No. You equate your personal tastes with the public and your personal tastes don't agree with the public. Again, Journey's success after they went soft blows your arguement.

The difference between Journey's ballads and Styx's was that Journey had Perry singing those songs. While Dennis is a SUPERB singer, he absolutely cannot do what Perry could with his voice. Also, Open Arms and Faithfully are much better songs than Babe or First Time could ever hope to be. The fact of the matter is, they just weren't that good. "Show Me the Way" on the other hand, was a great song from him.

After Rocking the Paradise- Dennis didn't write another ROCK song in his career with Styx. He became mired in chasing the hit song. Mr Roboto rock? No. High Time rock? no. The only rock song he did after that was "Not Dead Yet" and that wasn't his tune.

Where's that dead horse graphic...?

[Toph]

You talk out of both sides of your mouth. When did he "only" do love songs? Paradise? no. Kilroy? No. You equate your personal tastes with the public and your personal tastes don't agree with the public. Again, Journey's success after they went soft blows your arguement.

The difference between Journey's ballads and Styx's was that Journey had Perry singing those songs. While Dennis is a SUPERB singer, he absolutely cannot do what Perry could with his voice. Also, Open Arms and Faithfully are much better songs than Babe or First Time could ever hope to be. The fact of the matter is, they just weren't that good. "Show Me the Way" on the other hand, was a great song from him.

After Rocking the Paradise- Dennis didn't write another ROCK song in his career with Styx. He became mired in chasing the hit song. Mr Roboto rock? No. High Time rock? no. The only rock song he did after that was "Not Dead Yet" and that wasn't his tune.

Where's that dead horse graphic...?

Name a rock song that Tommy wrote AFTER his contributions on Pieces of Eight.....
Nothing on Cornerstone
TMTOMH? Hardly...She Cares? Cold War? Ha! Just Get Through This Night? HWBHB? Waiting for that head bangin' rocker from Tommy folks....where is it?

Looks to me like Tommy had more of a drought with non rock songs than Dennis.

[cittadeeno23]

How about Love in the midnight? That song kicks serious ass! Nothing soft about that song. One of my 5 favorite all time Styx songs. WAY under-rated.
I never get tired of listening to it.

But the truth is, both Dennis and Tommy "softened up" as time went on. It happens to most bands.

I can't blame Dennis for changing direction. He made Styx a household name with "babe" and "best of times".

I just personally wish they would have kept doing the progressive rock. They were great at it and he was great at writing those songs.
And he still is. Crossing the Rubicon is fantastic.

If Cornerstone and Paradise and Kilroy had all had 7 or 8 rockin prog tunes each and one ballad each, I think that would have been cool with most of the lifetime Diehards.

[Boomchild]

You talk out of both sides of your mouth. When did he "only" do love songs? Paradise? no. Kilroy? No. You equate your personal tastes with the public and your personal tastes don't agree with the public. Again, Journey's success after they went soft blows your arguement.

The difference between Journey's ballads and Styx's was that Journey had Perry singing those songs. While Dennis is a SUPERB singer, he absolutely cannot do what Perry could with his voice. Also, Open Arms and Faithfully are much better songs than Babe or First Time could ever hope to be. The fact of the matter is, they just weren't that good. "Show Me the Way" on the other hand, was a great song from him.

After Rocking the Paradise- Dennis didn't write another ROCK song in his career with Styx. He became mired in chasing the hit song. Mr Roboto rock? No. High Time rock? no. The only rock song he did after that was "Not Dead Yet" and that wasn't his tune.

Where's that dead horse graphic...?

Name a rock song that Tommy wrote AFTER his contributions on Pieces of Eight.....
Nothing on Cornerstone
TMTOMH? Hardly...She Cares? Cold War? Ha! Just Get Through This Night? HWBHB? Waiting for that head bangin' rocker from Tommy folks....where is it?

Looks to me like Tommy had more of a drought with non rock songs than Dennis.

Very good point.