Too stupid to breathe

[Angel]

True!! I think what it comes down to is personalities! Some people just feel they are holier than thou, no matter what they might believe it. It's their nature!

Exactly! I also think people tend to judge a religion by the people and not the doctrine/beliefs of the religion.

[conversationpc]

[StevePerryHair]

[artist4perry]

[conversationpc]

All kidding aside, the crack Parfait made about drugging a woman's drink and then taking advantage of her...Completely sick even for a joke.

Any dude that would even need to joke about doing something like that obviously can't get any decent woman on his own merits. Dude must be hideous.

[Saint John]

Found this on the internet and thought it summed things up pretty well. Afterward, there is a quote that drives the point home even more.




Organized religion is the culmination of thousands of year’s worth, and millions of people’s, combined suspension of reasoning. The result is many different religions, all of which are flawed by fallacy, contradictory to evidence in the physical, and void of physical proof. Man’s failed attempt to turn a personal, individual, abstract concept of God into a concrete message he can logically express to others combined with his fear of the that which he cannot provide a logical explanation has resulted in the quintessential culmination of confusion, disorder, and inaccuracy that is organized religion. This is evident in the conflict that arises when men hypocritically try to convince or impose their illogical and irrational system of belief, while persecuting and dismissing, the beliefs of others as thoughtless and foolish. Throughout history, men have always fought for their religious beliefs; the only difference in the conflict over time is the sophistication of the weapons we use. The most empowering yet devastating tool known to man is the degree to which we can think and reason. We are simultaneously empowered by, and limited to our ability to think rationally. The conflict caused by the creation of organized religion by man is undeniable proof logic is our greatest strength, yet most vulnerable weakness. Once the unique, distinctive intangible concept of God leaves and someone’s mind, is physically conceptualized by way or speech or writing, the once perfect idea is instantly distorted, blurred, transformed, and flawed for it is now subject to man’s logically limited perception.



Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction.

Albert Einstein

[artist4perry]

"I want to know God's thoughts; the rest are details."

"God is subtle but he is not malicious."

"God does not care about our mathematical difficulties. He integrates empirically."
"The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing."

Other thoughts of Albert Einstein ..........

[conversationpc]

Found this on the internet and thought it summed things up pretty well. Afterward, there is a quote that drives the point home even more.

Organized religion is the culmination of thousands of year’s worth, and millions of people’s, combined suspension of reasoning. The result is many different religions, all of which are flawed by fallacy, contradictory to evidence in the physical, and void of physical proof. Man’s failed attempt to turn a personal, individual, abstract concept of God into a concrete message he can logically express to others combined with his fear of the that which he cannot provide a logical explanation has resulted in the quintessential culmination of confusion, disorder, and inaccuracy that is organized religion. This is evident in the conflict that arises when men hypocritically try to convince or impose their illogical and irrational system of belief, while persecuting and dismissing, the beliefs of others as thoughtless and foolish. Throughout history, men have always fought for their religious beliefs; the only difference in the conflict over time is the sophistication of the weapons we use. The most empowering yet devastating tool known to man is the degree to which we can think and reason. We are simultaneously empowered by, and limited to our ability to think rationally. The conflict caused by the creation of organized religion by man is undeniable proof logic is our greatest strength, yet most vulnerable weakness. Once the unique, distinctive intangible concept of God leaves and someone’s mind, is physically conceptualized by way or speech or writing, the once perfect idea is instantly distorted, blurred, transformed, and flawed for it is now subject to man’s logically limited perception.



Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction.

Albert Einstein

He's correct, for the most part. I'm not a huge fan of most organized religion, either, at least as it pertains to denominations.

[parfait]

"I want to know God's thoughts; the rest are details."

"God is subtle but he is not malicious."

"God does not care about our mathematical difficulties. He integrates empirically."
"The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing."

Other thoughts of Albert Einstein ..........

Einstein did not speak of the God you pray to, but Spinoza's God. So he was an agnostic.

[Deb]

All kidding aside, the crack Parfait made about drugging a woman's drink and then taking advantage of her...Completely sick even for a joke.

Any dude that would even need to joke about doing something like that obviously can't get any decent woman on his own merits. Dude must be hideous.

Hello? We are talking about a dude who felt the urge to piss down a woman's throat.

[StevePerryHair]

Organized religion has it problems. Anything involving people has it's problems. The one thing you get from organized religion, you don't get from sitting at home praying, is community. I know it's not a necessity in life, but I have met some special people, and they have come to my rescue when I needed them most. That is my number one reason for it.

[artist4perry]

"I want to know God's thoughts; the rest are details."

"God is subtle but he is not malicious."

"God does not care about our mathematical difficulties. He integrates empirically."
"The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing."

Other thoughts of Albert Einstein ..........

Einstein did not speak of the God you pray to, but Spinoza's God. So he was an agnostic.

Still God..........agnostic or not.

[conversationpc]

"I want to know God's thoughts; the rest are details."

"God is subtle but he is not malicious."

"God does not care about our mathematical difficulties. He integrates empirically."
"The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing."

Other thoughts of Albert Einstein ..........

Einstein did not speak of the God you pray to, but Spinoza's God. So he was an agnostic.

So if Einstein, being WAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYY smarter than you obviously are, was at least agnostic...

[artist4perry]

* I spend a few minutes in meditation and prayer each morning. I find that this really helps me to start the day with a good frame of reference. As part of my prayers, I thank whoever is helping me - I`m sure that somebody or something is - I express gratitude for all my blessings and try to forgive the people that I`m feeling negative toward. I try hard not to judge anyone, and I try to bless everyone who is part of my life, particularly anyone with whom I am having any problems. Jim Henson

* I`ve always tried to present a positive view of the world in my work. It`s so much easier to be negative and cynical and predict doom for the world than it is to try and figure out how to make things better. We have an obligation to do the latter. Jim Henson
Author: Jim Henson Quotes

* I believe in taking a positive attitude toward the world, toward people, toward my work. I think I`m here for a purpose. I think it`s very likely that we all are, but I`m only sure about myself. I try to tune myself in to whatever it is that I`m supposed to be, and I try to think of myself as a part of all of us - all mankind and all life. I find it`s not easy to keep these lofty thoughts in mind as the day goes by, but it certainly helps me a great deal to start out this way. Jim Henson
Author: Jim Henson Quotes

And my favorite:
* I believe that we form our own lives, that we create our own reality, and that everything works out for the best. I know I drive some people crazy with what seems to be ridiculous optimism, but it has always worked out for me. Jim Henson
Author: Jim Henson Quotes

[artist4perry]

I love Jim Henson's outlook. I only pray I can keep as positive. I have to remember even if someone annoys me, I still need to love them. I don't have to like what they do, but I wish them no real harm.

I know some of you do not get faith or religion. I understand that more than you know. As Rip said, we all go through doubts sometimes. But I do believe it is my faith that keeps me strong, and I find solace there. I don't have to prove that to anyone. It is as personal and deep as the very beating of my heart.

I also never understand the need of some to have so much hate towards those who believe. I don't hate atheists. Nor do I feel the need to convert anyone not wanting conversion.

I kid around here, and as a human I get annoyed and react much as a human being. But the only lofty thing I can do, is find a way to love most everyone. I cannot change a person from good to bad. But I can hope for their change of heart towards their fellow man.

[conversationpc]

I kid around here, and as a human I get annoyed and react much as a human being. But the only lofty thing I can do, is find a way to love most everyone. I cannot change a person from good to bad. But I can hope for their change of heart towards their fellow man.

Not a thing wrong with a spirited debate as long as one doesn't pull a "Parfait".

[conversationpc]

[artist4perry]

I kid around here, and as a human I get annoyed and react much as a human being. But the only lofty thing I can do, is find a way to love most everyone. I cannot change a person from good to bad. But I can hope for their change of heart towards their fellow man.

Not a thing wrong with a spirited debate as long as one doesn't pull a "Parfait".

[Don]

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly."

"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings."

"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotism."

I think it's pretty obvious that Einstein was agnostic. He definitely was not an athiest as he could never prove to himself that there was no Creator but as far the God known by Christianity, he found numerous faults with that concept. He admits to readily using the term God very freely as a metaphor to describe the vastness of the universe to which he was in awe.

[conversationpc]

I think it's pretty obvious that Einstein was agnostic. He definitely was not an athiest as he could never prove to himself that there was no Creator but as far the God known by Christianity, he found numerous faults with that concept. He did use the word God very freely as a metaphor to describe the vastness of the universe to which he was in awe.

I think we already established that a few posts back.

[Don]

I think it's pretty obvious that Einstein was agnostic. He definitely was not an athiest as he could never prove to himself that there was no Creator but as far the God known by Christianity, he found numerous faults with that concept. He did use the word God very freely as a metaphor to describe the vastness of the universe to which he was in awe.

I think we already established that a few posts back.

I thouight I would just add onto it a bit as he was very inconsistant with what he would publicly state as his own beliefs in his early years.

[Rockindeano]

Other thoughts of Albert Einstein ..........

Einstien jokes? OK.


What is the smartest thing to ever come out of a woman's mouth?

A- Einstien's cock.

[parfait]

The pope is infallible, and the true voice of Jesus on earth. Why don't you follow him?

I'm not Catholic. The pope is not my spokesman. I don't believe in Catholicism. Never have. Never will. Learn how to read.

Creationism shouldn't be thought in science classes, because it's not science, and laughed at by the scientific community. Science is about evidence and fact, and these values and principles should not be destroyed by pissed off, ignorant religious parents who wants to teach their kids about the sin flood and rising from the dead. That belongs in the storytelling class. If you got an alternative idea to evolution, then put it to the test. They did it with creationism, and it failed.

Show me where I said it should be taught in schools. I said simply that it should be allowed to be brought up by students. Again, learn how to read if you're so smart.

The singularity was a time before the Big Bang. Some instances in quantum mechanics, will particles, dimensionless dots, meet and destroy each other - a positron and electron for example. Black Holes can also emit energy, called Hawkings radiation, which is created from nothing.

As previously stated, the "nothing" is not really nothing but thanks for playing.

Why don't you, instead of nitpicking and taking my post out of context, answer my whole post - even the tough parts. I'd like to remind everyone that I still haven't got one answer from my evolutionary theory post a while back. You would think someone who's so sure that it's not correct, would have some evidence.

Why could one ask, why doesn't they have any proof of anything at all? It's because believing demands that you suspend all reason and logic, to enter a masochistic master, servant relationship - made my men to explain the things that formerly was unexplainable.

[artist4perry]

[ebake02]

Organized religion has it problems. Anything involving people has it's problems. The one thing you get from organized religion, you don't get from sitting at home praying, is community. I know it's not a necessity in life, but I have met some special people, and they have come to my rescue when I needed them most. That is my number one reason for it.

Not a fan of organized religion myself. I have a hard time believing in denominations when they all essentially preach from the same book.

[StevePerryHair]

Organized religion has it problems. Anything involving people has it's problems. The one thing you get from organized religion, you don't get from sitting at home praying, is community. I know it's not a necessity in life, but I have met some special people, and they have come to my rescue when I needed them most. That is my number one reason for it.

Not a fan of organized religion myself. I have a hard time believing in denominations when they all essentially preach from the same book.

Well because we are human, there are all kinds of interpretations. I know where I am most comfortable with my beliefs. But the community part is what I'm trying to express. Unless you've experienced that type of community, it's hard to understand I think. The community my parents had surrounding us, who reached out when my dad passed away at 46. The community I found in my own church about 5 years ago. Its about just helping each other get through this crazy world. I like to think it's God working through people, when the community is there for each other in happy times and some of the most tragic I've experienced in my life so far. Without that community, and God, and my Christianity, I'm not sure I could have made peace with a few things. But that's me and my 2cents. Everyone is different! And not every church has that kind of community. I've been very lucky. Good priests has helped.

[Moon Beam]

I know where I am most comfortable with my beliefs. But the community part is what I'm trying to express. Unless you've experienced that type of community, it's hard to understand I think. The community my parents had surrounding us, who reached out when my dad passed away at 46. The community I found in my own church about 5 years ago. Its about just helping each other get through this crazy world. I like to think it's God working through people, when the community is there for each other in happy times and some of the most tragic I've experienced in my life so far. Without that community, and God, and my Christianity, I'm not sure I could have made peace with a few things. But that's me and my 2cents. Everyone is different! And not every church has that kind of community. I've been very lucky. Good priests has helped.

Nice post Lynne, loved reading how he has helped heal you through hard and happy times in your life.

[conversationpc]

Why don't you, instead of nitpicking and taking my post out of context, answer my whole post - even the tough parts. I'd like to remind everyone that I still haven't got one answer from my evolutionary theory post a while back. You would think someone who's so sure that it's not correct, would have some evidence.

Why could one ask, why doesn't they have any proof of anything at all? It's because believing demands that you suspend all reason and logic, to enter a masochistic master, servant relationship - made my men to explain the things that formerly was unexplainable.

I'm not sure which post you're talking about and I've taken nothing of yours out of context. Regardless, I don't have an answer for everything and if you expect me or any other Christian to provide an answer for everything, you're imposing a requirement on people that isn't possible for anyone on either side of the argument. That standard is basically just an intellectual crutch people use to put others in a nice little box where you can say "Look, you don't know the answer, so you must be a stupid, knuckle-dragging, superstitious neanderthal". Give me a break. I don't expect you to know everything (because you obviously don't) and you shouldn't be holding others to that standard, either.

Besides that, just as Christians don't have an answer for everything, and never will, those who CLAIM to have the high ground of logic and reason don't and won't either.

[Rip Rokken]

Lee Strobel's athiest-to-believer story is inspiring, but from what I've read, he wasn't really well versed in either athiesm or Christianity to begin with. He had little knowledge either way. He converted to Christianity when his wife became a believer, and thru the positive change in her life concluded that God had to be behind it.

Actually, his wife's conversion really turned him off even more to the idea of there actually being a God. He wanted to prove it false and, I'm sure according to how he handled his own profession, put a great deal of research into it since he set out to disprove it to his own wife.

Yes, I have to amend that -- I mean, his wife's conversion led to his (eventually). Thank you for the clarification.

Just as I was, I've found every fundamental Christian that I've ever met to be pretty sheltered in their belief. I don't know if you consider yourself "fundamental" or not, but by that term I'm referring to Christians who believe that the Bible is the inerrant, absolute, and perfect word of God (that they interpret literally, Adam & Eve, Noah's Ark, etc, etc.), that Jesus was God incarnate in human flesh, and that he died for the sins of mankind and physically rose from the dead and ascended to Heaven.

I certainly wouldn't call myself sheltered. I've ventured into these kinds of discussions on many an occasion and find they typically strengthen my faith rather than weaken it. Anyway, yes, I would say that I believe the things you mentioned above. This is really too much to go into in much detail here, so I'm not going to bother at this point but I can elaborate later on, if necessary.

"Sheltered" was probably not the best term either, and what I mean is, there is a lot most don't seem to get exposed to or know. Real evidence, not just arguments.

I know in my experience, and much of it was probably subconscious, I would steer straight clear of anything that I thought might allow Satan to confuse or poison me. I had no interest in learning anything scientific that might cause me to question. Why should I take the risk? I knew I was right, and that was enough. I was going to believe what I was going to believe, because I had no choice but to believe.

I've never understood this mentality. I think this is all rather very fascinating.

I'm sure it's not everyone's thinking, and for me again, much was subconscious. Roughly, I guess it would be something like thinking, "My daughter is an angel... I don't want to hear anyone tell me she's a slut!"

There's good evidence to suggest that none of the things you mentioned above are necessarily true.

You actually caught me too quick... I was feeling bad about posting all of that and tried to delete it, lol. I'm really not here to try to disprove anyone's faith, but when I start writing, sometimes it's hard to stop. Apparently more scholars today accept the Two-Source Hypothesis that Matthew and Luke drew from the earlier Mark (and a lost earlier manuscript termed "Q") than those who believe Matthew was the earliest (which was the original widely accepted belief). "2SH" has its flaws, but from what I've read seems to have become the most accepted these days.

As for the verse from 10:18, I don't see that as Jesus denying to be God at all. Could Jesus have been trying to get the man to think a little by asking him a leading question? That seems likely to me considering Jesus often did that. Besides that, if, as you say, the writers of the gospels did borrow heavily from each other (and it hasn't been established that they have), don't you think that's one pretty obvious thing they would have "edited" if they had thought it meant he was denying his divinity?

I used to be fascinated by apologetics, but so much of it requires leaps of logic to make a point. I would hear explanations like this and say, "Wow!" Your point here isn't so much a stretch, but these days I'm viewing things much more in light of Occam's Razor -- basically, that the interpretation that requires the least number of assumptions is often the preferred one.

Here's one example of apologetics gone wild, trying to explain why God sent a few bears to kill (or at least maul) 42 kids why taunted Elijah and made fun of his bald head:

http://carm.org/bible-difficulties/josh ... a-was-bald

I'd love to see some pedophile priests get mauled by some bears, but He just doesn't work that way anymore, lol.

I can't comment on this entire quote because I certainly don't have the time necessary to research and check my facts on everything. Again, it's all stuff that I've studied up on in the past and come to completely different conclusions about it than you have here. Taken as a whole, though, it's completely amazing how close a vast majority of the extant manuscripts we still have agree with one another almost exactly in most places. The 400,000 variations you quote above may be accurate but we also need to remember just how many manuscript discoveries there have been over the years. The 400,000 number seems huge on its face but it's really rather small considering the amount of manuscripts we have on the NT writings.

I shouldn't have thrown out the number without the other variables (number of manuscripts, etc.), but it can't be denied that there are many discrepancies that happened over centuries of copying by hand. Even if most are extremely minor, some are major enough (even purposeful) to cause serious problems. It's a big topic. If you are interested, check out this video series -- it's 10 part, but once I started watching it I couldn't stop until I'd seen the entire thing.

Bart Ehrman - Misquoting Jesus, Stanford Lecture, How Bible Got Tainted 1/10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cK3Ry_icJo

Ehrman was another believer who went to seminary and was bothered by what he learned when it came to the manuscripts. He's agnostic these days, but I like him because he appears to be as objective as possible, dedicated to what the evidence presents. Anyway, if you happen to check it out and whether you agree with what he says or not, there are points he makes which are extremely hard to ignore.

Well, belief in the trinity isn't a far stretch considering Jesus' claim to be God, that he also called God his "Father" on many occasions and that the New Testement ascribes the attributes of God to the Holy Spirit. Now, I don't claim to fully understand how the concept works but it doesn't seem like a far stretch to me regardless of what these two bishops might have discussed with one another.

The trinity doctrine was always much easier for me to have a peaceful understanding of than questions like "how could God have existed in eternity past" which is tied in with, "who created God?". I just said to myself, "He's one in essence with three distinct expressions", or something like that. Imagine this, though... taking the New Testament having heard nothing of traditional doctrine, and trying to figure out what it means. Not only that, but starting from scratch with all the available manuscripts including several non-canonical gospels and epistles that were later decided to be heretical, forged, or at least non-inspired for one reason or another, then trying to make sense of it all. Some of these books were actually read and accepted in early churches until someone else said not to do it (Paul being the earliest example by cautioning against Gnostic teachings). Would we have even come up with the same doctrinal conclusions as earlier church leaders did? Anyway, over time and process, the canon was formed and and even that is not 100% agreed upon. I believe the modern Egyptian Bible still has a few extra books than ours does. We traditionally accept that God guided the process to preserve His word over time, but when some of the politics behind how some of the doctrines came about is known, and looking at some of the blatant changes to text which made it into our modern Bibles is taken into account, it seems incredibly human, not divine, unless God also goes creates multiple "drafts" during His writing process.

Here are some (rhretorical) question I think about sometimes... If God really wanted for all men to be saved, and wanted to speak His message to mankind, couldn't he have done a better job of making himself clear to understand, instead of nearly impossible to agree on (even by sincere, seeking men of God)? Why make faith so challenging by allowing all the abuses in Christendom to continue, or by "testing" us in so many ways that may shake us rather than strengthen us. Why make faith so often require us to ignore or even do the exact opposite of what all the protective instincts and common sense thinking the He supposedly created us with tell is to do? (e.g., why should disasters or horrible tragedies actually increase our faith?) Why would a God who is so often described as having a wide range of very human emotions work in "mysterious ways" that humans can't relate to?

I used to really denounce all the "liberal" churches out there who didn't agree with fundamental thinking, but these days it's not hard to see why so many people can't accept fundamentalist beliefs.

Since I left faith behind, nothing in my world has changed to make me think otherwise, but only to strengthen my decision. One example, a believing friend at work tried convincing me of all the ways God had acted in my life, including giving me my job, my income, etc. (with the thought that "He giveth and can taketh away". I replied, "Then why did I just have my best two years since rejecting him?" If God was responsible for that, then to me he's just like the dad who doesn't want to spend time with you, but just sends you a check every once in a while. I didn't want his money, I just wanted his love, and his time. If my daughter tells me she needs me, I'm there for her. I don't let her twist and suffer and wonder why I don't respond. If I did, people would consider me a horrible parent. If she needs correction or straightening out, that's fine, but I'm there to tell her.

I'm just purging at this point, lol... I think it helps. Forgive me.

[Rip Rokken]

Second, nobody should be called "stupid" for having faith or believing the Bible. It has nothing to do with intelligence. It has to do with hope, love, and the desire to know one's creator.

Good quote, my friend. I'm glad to hear someone who's acknowledged losing faith say something like this.

Man, it's true and no matter what I say in the "debate", I have absolutely no desire to discourage anyone for whom faith is working. Me even participating in the discussion is really a conflict of interest, and I apologize on the chance I might offend any of my believing friends. I'd go back to belief if I could, or had any reason to think things would be different for me in the long run.