Why Journey is more successful than Styx

[Toph]

I’ve been thinking about this a lot and trying to figure out why Journey has been so much more successful than Styx when in 1980, Styx was bigger than Journey. Since Escape, Journey has surpassed Styx and never looked back. They have sold 3 times the amount of albums that Styx has sold, continue to headline, successfully transitioned to new lead singers, and even had a mainstream hit record in 2009, some 30 years after their peak. It comes down to a few things in my book:

Talent – Yes, Journey just has more talent than Styx musically. In all aspects of a rock group sound, Journey surpasses Styx. Schon is a better guitar player than Shaw/Young, Lead vocals (Perry) are better than Shaw/Young and on par, if not better, than DeYoung. Backing vocals (Perry, Cain/Rollie, Schon) are better than (DeYoung/Shaw/Young) with better, more richer harmonies. Keyboards – Cain/Rollie and DeYoung are about equal. Drums – Smith eats Panozzo’s lunch. Bass – Ross V. is slightly better than Chuckie. Journey just has more musical talent.

Songwriting – Journey’s lyrics are probably not as strong as Styx’s (but many Journey fans will tell you that every Journey song has a different meaning when you go under the surface), but be that as it may, Journey crafts a better melodic song. They are crisp, interesting, and are, for the most part, more radio friendly…which gets me to my next point.

Releases the right singles – Journey has songs on each record that appeal to the masses – and usually more than Styx relatively speaking. The results speak for themselves – on the Rollie albums (Infinity, Evolution, Departure) there are similar #s of singles as the equivalent Styx album (GI, Po8, C). But with Escape things differ significantly - 4 top 40s plus 2 other songs (Stone in Love, Escape) that got Rock Play vs. Paradise 2 top 40s plus 2 rock songs. Frontiers 4 top 40s, plus one 1 rock track vs. Kilroy 2 top 40s plus 0 rock tracks. Raised on Radio 4 top 40s, Styx – nothing in 86. Their singles also have done a good job of standing the test of time which leads to the next point

Songs stand the test of time – You hear Journey all the time on the radio on multiple different types of formats - classic rock, but also a lot of AC. They have not been afraid to continue to push their old songs and push their catalog of records. Styx has tried to pretend anything that is past 1978 didn’t exist. Journey is proud of their back catalog and plugs it to this day. Styx doesn’t plug any of their old songs with a few exception. Best of Times, Don’t Let It End, Show Me The Way have basically fallen off the map – and these all hit the top 5 when they were singles. Which brings us to the next point…

Journey isn’t afraid of the ballad – Journey realizes that the ballad is a key to keeping yourself relevant and getting airplay. They don’t shy away from it. They know that if you can write some kick ass rock songs, that you can get away with have 3-4 ballads on an album and still be appealing to classic rock and pop fans. And they release those ballads as singles! 3 of the 4 singles on Escape were ballads, 2 of 4 on Frontiers were ballads. Even on ROR, there was a healthy dose of ballads, Trial By Fire was mostly ballads. After All These Years which went top 10 on AC and got Journey Platinum status on Revelation was a ballad. Styx thinks of ballads as ruining their rock cred and the current band distances themselves from them, refusing to play them in concert and providing their audience with maybe 5-6 songs off their 16 set greatest hits package….if I am a concert goer, I’m pissed….which brings me to my next point.

Journey gives fans what they want in concert – hit songs and a lot of them. Styx and even Dennis do not do as good of a job as they could here. Styx – you aren’t going to get anything post 1978 which leaves a lot of hit songs off the table. Journey gives you tons of hit records – and they play them true to what was on the record. They don’t go off of 7 minute guitar odysseys and keyboard solos. They play a song for 4-5 minutes and then play the next one. Styx and even Dennis could play more songs if they didn’t have 10 minute versions of Come Sail Away and Renegade. 120 minutes divided by an 8 minute per song average gives you 15 songs. 120 minutes divided by a 5 minute song average gives you 24 songs. Would the average concert goer rather hear 24 songs at regular length or 15 with extended guitar solos, etc. My bet is beyond the hard core fans, most concert goers want to hear more of the hits.

So, in a nutshell this is why Journey is still successful with their current albums and past records and is the class of the bands that came out at that time. Styx is down there with Foreigner, REO etc. just trying to make it by….

Would love to hear some thoughts on this. I'm sure I've rubbed some the wrong way. But it is the truth. Journey is infinitely more successful than Styx and in 1980 that wasn't the case.

[yogi]

Journey had one voice & Styx had 3. Styx was far more diverse. I liked that but many dont.

When people hear Steve Perry they knew it was Journey. When people hear DDY the knew it is Styx. Their voices are sooo distinct. But when people hear Tommy or JY many ( casual fan ) was not sure who it was. When we got married my wife knew that Come Sail Away, Babe, Dont Let It End & Lady were all Styx songs. When she heard Renegade she did NOT know it was from Styx. Thats the truth.

Not sure if that is an answer but that is what I believe. Plus now Journey has gone for the Steve Perry copycat singers ( minus Jeff Scott Soto). They had to do this because they only had ONE voice. Styx replaced their signature voice with a singer that does not sound like DDY. Many old time diehards hate Gowan. I like him, but he is no DDY. He brought the Rush sound to DDY's songs.

[Higgy]

Well the fact is that, with the exception of Dennis's more epic stuff, there is a lot more to Journey than Styx - lyrically, musically, artistically, etc. In Styx's best moments, they were able to fuse three extremely disparate styles into one powerful theme (to me, Paradise Theater is the best example of this). However, more often than not, you got a mish mash - great moments, but not the one great work of pop art that you got with Journey albums.

[Baron Von Bielski]

I think all of it is a matter of my opinion. Styx, to me is a much better band than Journey all around. Although I like Journey and think they're a really good band with Steve Perry... but they'll never be Styx, to me.

[cittadeeno23]

I like Styx way better than Journey. Always have.
I'm talking about the real lineups that made the bands famous, not the cover bands touring today.

And Styx' harmonies are WAAAAAAAAAAY better than Journeys. Styx is more diverse. They have better lyrics. They have 3 singers and 2 guitarists. You cannot even compare the bands. Apples and oranges. Journey was a very talented band. They just never floated my boat.
I understand why they were popular. They deserve their fame. But I love Styx and never loved Journey.
Styx justs SOUNDS better to me.
That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. And it's all a matter of opinion. But I respect your opinion.
When I was in high-school you either loved Styx or Journey, but not both. Pretty silly, but that was how it was.

[brywool]

The Beatles had 3 singers (4 actually). I don't think you can really use that.

2 of Styx's guitarists do not equal 1 Neal Schon. Neal's an amazingly brilliant guitarist. Shaw and Young are great too, but nowhere near as creative as Neal. JY's guitar break on "Renegade" is an awesome piece of work, but so many of Neal's solos just KILL.

Harmony-wise- Styx has great harmonies, but listen to "Anyway You Want It" (a song I hate by the way), "Anytime", "Girl Can't Help It"- Styx's harmonies don't compare to those.

Perry was a very gifted singer. He could sing anything and it'd sound good.
Tommy and Dennis were also great singers, but next to Perry they're nowhere near as good. Not many are.

Jon Cain's a great songwriter as was the Perry/Schon/Cain for collaboration. Styx's songs- many of them are very dated sounding. Could be the keyboards used. Dennis had great keyboard sounds, but they are definitely 70s oriented as opposed to piano and organ that Cain and Rollie used which are timeless rock instruments that will always be used. The Oberhiem stuff Dennis used is pretty much HIS thing and songs like Roboto were extremely corny and very dated. Journey never went for that kind of stuff. They were more appealing to a broader audience. If you play Kilroy, then turn around and play Frontiers (both 83 albums)- Frontiers has a more timeless vibe. Kilroy is very targeted for the 80s. That's just using that one example.
If you think of Escape with Paradise Theatre (I think those came out in the same year, might've been Cornerstone)- Escape is the more 'inclusive' album. Paradise Theatre is more the concept album.

Personally, I think BOTH bands are brilliant, but if you had to have a list of comparable factors, I think Journey just has the definite edge. I don't think it really matters in the long run. People like what they like. All 3 acts (dennis, styx, journey) have their fans and are doing fine.

[StyxCollector]

I think you're missing a few key points.

1. By the time 1979/80 rolled around, Styx had success and the cracks were only growing bigger. Gregg Rolie left around that time, so Escape was his first album. They got new blood and a new lease on life for the 80s. Styx did not.

2. Compare Journey's 1st three albums (which I like) to some of the early Styx ones. They made a very clear, do-or-die approach by taking on Fleischman for a brief time then Perry and focusing on more accessible songs. Sure, you had an instrumental here and there ("Majestic"), but overall, they abandoned who they were.

3. Good music is not about having virtuosos. It's about doing the right thing to accompany good songs. Dropping a Steve Vai solo in the middle, of say, Boat on the River would be appropriate. Extreme case, but you get the idea.

Having said that, Schon played with Santana at like 15. So yea, he's a prodigy. And don't think he doesn't like to play extended guitar solos or embellish. If you saw the Soul Sirkus tour, you'd know what I mean. He reins it in quite a bit for Journey. One of his best solos is (IMO) that one he does on the outro to "Who's Crying Now?" - tasteful and yet so cool. He's not shredding at all. He builds it over time.

4.

[cittadeeno23]

To me, most of Journey's harmonies sound like Steve Perry backing himself up.
I still think Styx SOUNDS better. Just my opinion. Steve Perry has an excellent voice. But I like Dennis' and Tommy's voice better.
Neil is a stud though. I love the solo at the end of "Stone in Love".
I just saw "Lights" open up for Dennis last week. They sounded an awful lot like Journey. In every way.

[Toph]

To me, most of Journey's harmonies sound like Steve Perry backing himself up.
I still think Styx SOUNDS better. Just my opinion. Steve Perry has an excellent voice. But I like Dennis' and Tommy's voice better.
Neil is a stud though. I love the solo at the end of "Stone in Love".
I just saw "Lights" open up for Dennis last week. They sounded an awful lot like Journey. In every way.

Perry might be turned up slightly higher in the mix, but Cain/Rollie and Schon (and sometimes Ross) sings back up as well (Today Deen sings a lot of backup too). In fact I read somewhere (Herbie Herbert?) that the reason that Journey harmonies sound so deep and warm is that, say if it was a three part harmony, that each guy would sing all three notes. And it would be overdubbed together. Pretty cool, huh?

[Baron Von Bielski]

It all really comes down to Styx being considered uncool, just like in Sterling's book. The hits are there... and to us fans they are timeless. To me there is not a single Journey song that does to me what Come Sail Away or Fooling Yourself do. Hell, the entire Grand Illusion album for that matter. I said before, I like Journey... I have plenty of their CD's but I do not hold them in high regard like I do Styx. Journey has no number one hits, and you can't count Mainstream Rock Tracks or AC. Open Arms went to #2, I can't stand that song... to me it doesn't compare to Babe... which we all know went to #1. They each have one #1 album a piece... my point is total album sales aside the achievements aren't one-sided. Journey's next biggest hit was #4, Who's Crying Now... now that is a good song. And like stated by Collector has an awesome outro guitar solo. Is it an ripping solo that shows his fingerspeed and ability? No, but it is perfect for the song and shows his ability as a musician.

[Ehwmatt]

The Beatles had 3 singers (4 actually). I don't think you can really use that.

2 of Styx's guitarists do not equal 1 Neal Schon. Neal's an amazingly brilliant guitarist. Shaw and Young are great too, but nowhere near as creative as Neal. JY's guitar break on "Renegade" is an awesome piece of work, but so many of Neal's solos just KILL.

Harmony-wise- Styx has great harmonies, but listen to "Anyway You Want It" (a song I hate by the way), "Anytime", "Girl Can't Help It"- Styx's harmonies don't compare to those.

Perry was a very gifted singer. He could sing anything and it'd sound good.
Tommy and Dennis were also great singers, but next to Perry they're nowhere near as good. Not many are.

Jon Cain's a great songwriter as was the Perry/Schon/Cain for collaboration. Styx's songs- many of them are very dated sounding. Could be the keyboards used. Dennis had great keyboard sounds, but they are definitely 70s oriented as opposed to piano and organ that Cain and Rollie used which are timeless rock instruments that will always be used. The Oberhiem stuff Dennis used is pretty much HIS thing and songs like Roboto were extremely corny and very dated. Journey never went for that kind of stuff. They were more appealing to a broader audience. If you play Kilroy, then turn around and play Frontiers (both 83 albums)- Frontiers has a more timeless vibe. Kilroy is very targeted for the 80s. That's just using that one example.

I agree with you on the guitar stuff. Not so much on the rest of the stuff.

You can't compare the Styx harmonies to Journey harmonies because many of the legendary Journey harmonies aren't harmonies at all - they're just Perry. Styx harmonies, to the best of my knowledge, were always Tommy+JY+Dennis and were organic. I respect that.

I also think I'd take Dennis over Perry. At a minimum, it's a damn close fight. The guy is still out there now sounding DAMN close to how he sounded 35, 40 years ago. You can't discount longevity. And I also don't like the early Perry sound. Too high. Dennis always had a consistently great voice, albeit not everyone's cup of tea style-wise (though neither is Perry). Now, Tommy next to Perry is no contest for Perry (though I do really like Tommy's voice too).

As for the keyboards, yea, Dennis has a bunch of awful keyboard sounds in Styx. But, Frontiers is "timeless?" I don't think so. Even next to Kilroy, there's just no doubt Frontiers is from the same era to my ears. Right from the very first note of that Separate Ways synth opening, you're squarely in the early 80s. Songs like Rubicon, Frontiers, Troubled Child, and even the ballads like Send Her My Love are undoubtedly 80s if for nothing else but the spacey sounding drums. Assume they included songs like Ask The Lonely and Only The Young as originally planned, and it only gets more 80s.

With all that said, I probably like Journey music more. Journey was probably more talented as a whole, but I think Journey was more successful because they went full-blown pop. Styx was poppy, yes, but they always had those elements of either the progressive or theatrical side that probably tended to alienate some of the masses more so than Journey.

[Ehwmatt]

To me, most of Journey's harmonies sound like Steve Perry backing himself up.
I still think Styx SOUNDS better. Just my opinion. Steve Perry has an excellent voice. But I like Dennis' and Tommy's voice better.
Neil is a stud though. I love the solo at the end of "Stone in Love".
I just saw "Lights" open up for Dennis last week. They sounded an awful lot like Journey. In every way.

Perry might be turned up slightly higher in the mix, but Cain/Rollie and Schon (and sometimes Ross) sings back up as well (Today Deen sings a lot of backup too). In fact I read somewhere (Herbie Herbert?) that the reason that Journey harmonies sound so deep and warm is that, say if it was a three part harmony, that each guy would sing all three notes. And it would be overdubbed together. Pretty cool, huh?

Hm. In the early days, you can definitely hear Rollie in on those harmonies. But, after that, I'm not so sure. I think Perry really took over and started tracking himself multiple times. I thought I read somewhere he was obsessed with tracking his voice like 20 some times. I'm pretty sure that at least from Frontiers on, you're hearing ALL Perry. Can someone with more knowledge confirm this?

As far as today goes, Deen's definitely singing backup, but they're also piping in vox. I can assure you Ross has NO part in those ball-frying harmonies, lol. Not sure about Neal or Jon. Most of the time, I don't think they're singing, or at lesat not being pumped through the mix much.

[jestor92]

As a fan of both bands they each have their pluses and minuses.

In the 70's I feel that Styx was just as good of a band as Journey was. Just listening to the music and up until the end of the 70's both bands had success with some pop songs and some heavier songs, but neither really found that ultimate key cowriting partener. That really changed with Journey after Rolie left the band because for whatever the reason the Schon/Perry/Cain writing combination for Escape and Frontiers was a writing partenership that really truly clicked and elevated Journey from solid pop rock band to the band they were. When Cain came in they wrote an amazing record in Escape that has maybe one song on it that is weak and if Frontiers would've been released with Only The Young and Ask The Lonely instead of some of the later songs on the album it could've been right there with Escape in terms of awesome records. Styx on the other hand they never really seemed to have that one exceptionally strong album IMO. Musically they seemed to peak in the late 70's (although Paradise Theater was a very good album). One thing that I think really hurt Styx long term is that Shaw/DDY wouldn't compromise enough with the direction of the music they wanted to play. DDY seemed to want to write more operatic ballad type songs, while Shaw and Young seemed to want to write more rock oriented songs. Instead of compromising they butted heads instead of putting the best songs on the album.

One thing that Journey had going for them that Styx never really had going for them IMO is their songs sounded better from a production point of view IMO. The point I'm talking about is that in the case of Paradise Theater the songs on the album don't seem to be able to really breathe much. They don't sound like they were recorded well. A song like Rockin the Paradise or Snowblind are a very good example of this problem. Here you have a very rockin song that just on the album sounds kind of flat. On the other hand with Escape the entire album with the exception of Stone In Love really seems energetic. That really helps a song that has a lot of musical dynamics like Mother, Father shine. Had Mother, Father been recorded/released by Styx I question how well it would've sounded.


That's a couple things off the top of my head as to why Journey seemed to really rise while Styx stayed the course they sailed.

[Seven Wishes2]

Styx - a little more intelligent songwriting with more thematic resonance when they nailed it, but a lot of their material comes up short (and I LOVE Styx). There are simply more GOOD Journey songs on any given album this side of PT than on any Styx record.

Styx - gets the leg up on background vox. DeYoung is a little more ambitious than Cain with a little less penchant for that melodic vein. The fact that Styx had two singers (sorry, but Young is a dick and his voice sucks) with equally amazing tone is pretty amazing - that being said, there's only one Perry.

Journey - no comparison between Schon and Young. Neil is one of the four or five best in the world at what he does, and his styles are immensely diverse.

It's a toss up for me - in the end, I give Journey the edge by just a hair because their catalogue is deeper and their melodic proficiency is simply unparalleled. Also working against Styx is their total output of 21 original songs in the past 17 years.

[Toph]

Listen to the following songs and tell me Journey harmonies don't stack up with Styx

Feeling That Way/Anytime
Just The Same Way
Lovin' Touchin Squeezin
Anyway You Want It
Who's Cryin Now
After The Fall
Girl Can't Help It

[bugsymalone]

Good topic, Toph!

I have a hard time comparing these two bands because, to me, they were so very, very different. Everything: Style. Songwriting. Vocals. Guitar work. Keyboard work. Harmonies.

It is one reason I like both groups so much, because both offered, to me, really different sounds of rock/pop/melodic music to listen to and enjoy, which, believe me, I did, then and now.

I know so many like to compare the vocals of DDY and SP, but, again, two really different singers. I loved both and they are what drove me to getting into the music of Styx and Journey in the first place. And Dennis has amazingly kept the voice for so many years. His singing talent is a truly rare gift.

I love harmonies and I do think the prize goes to Styx there. At their best, no one could touch them in that department.

As to longevity and respect. The prize goes to Journey. While Journey was still making great music in the 80's, Styx was spinning out of control and breaking apart, leaving as their last album legacy (for their classic lineup), an album that sold extremely well, but was considered an artistic failure that left a bad taste in everyone's mouth. It was all too late by the time RTP and that brief reunion came along.

Bugsy

[StyxCollector]

DDY seemed to want to write more operatic ballad type songs, while Shaw and Young seemed to want to write more rock oriented songs. Instead of compromising they butted heads instead of putting the best songs on the album.

Are you really playing this card? Let me give you evidence from 1978 - 1981:
She Cares
Boat on the River
Sing for the Day

One thing that Journey had going for them that Styx never really had going for them IMO is their songs sounded better from a production point of view IMO. The point I'm talking about is that in the case of Paradise Theater the songs on the album don't seem to be able to really breathe much. They don't sound like they were recorded well. A song like Rockin the Paradise or Snowblind are a very good example of this problem. Here you have a very rockin song that just on the album sounds kind of flat. On the other hand with Escape the entire album with the exception of Stone In Love really seems energetic. That really helps a song that has a lot of musical dynamics like Mother, Father shine. Had Mother, Father been recorded/released by Styx I question how well it would've sounded.

Huh? You lost me on this one. Escape is not the best recorded album I've ever heard, and every digital version isn't great - that all has to do with the source master to some degree. I love Escape, but sounding better than PT? Not on this planet.

[Ehwmatt]

Listen to the following songs and tell me Journey harmonies don't stack up with Styx

Feeling That Way/Anytime
Just The Same Way
Lovin' Touchin Squeezin
Anyway You Want It
Who's Cryin Now
After The Fall
Girl Can't Help It

Journey harmonies definitely stack up with Styx harmonies. You'd have to be a fool to argue otherwise.

I just think that the post-Rollie songs are a bit unfair to compare because they were, to my ears and my understanding (and correct me if I'm wrong), almost exclusively Perry just tracking his voice over and over. Styx harmonies always featured Tommy+Dennis+JY, and were more organic. I think that's where you have to give the edge to Styx. From a listening standpoint though, certainly Journey's are every bit as good and probably better than Styx's.

[Higgy]

Journey harmonies definitely stack up with Styx harmonies. You'd have to be a fool to argue otherwise.

I know that this is a statement that people pretend isn't true - but Styx harmonies are AWFUL! They are grating, high pitched, and generally offensive to listen to. I specifically point to the examples Best Thing, Renegade (especially at the end), Put Me On - hell, lets just make this short by saying ANY HARMONY THAT INCLUDES JY. Just because its kind of "their sound" doesn't make it good. DDY has one of the best voices in rock and Tommy is also a decent singer - but mix those two with JY and its just really horrible to listen to. Hence, the best Styx songs are the ones that either JY's volume is turned down (Come Sail Away), not present (Babe, Haven't We Been Here Before), or is actually exercising restraint (Crystal Ball).

BTW, Journey harmonies at time employ four parts - with Vallory singing.

[brywool]

I think you're missing a few key points.

1. By the time 1979/80 rolled around, Styx had success and the cracks were only growing bigger. Gregg Rolie left around that time, so Escape was his first album. They got new blood and a new lease on life for the 80s. Styx did not.

Journey already scored big with Departure. It as already a great selling album. Journey was already on the upswing- then Escape happened and it made them HUGE.

2. Compare Journey's 1st three albums (which I like) to some of the early Styx ones. They made a very clear, do-or-die approach by taking on Fleischman for a brief time then Perry and focusing on more accessible songs. Sure, you had an instrumental here and there ("Majestic"), but overall, they abandoned who they were.

You could say the same about Styx when they went to A&M.

3. Good music is not about having virtuosos. It's about doing the right thing to accompany good songs. Dropping a Steve Vai solo in the middle, of say, Boat on the River would be appropriate. Extreme case, but you get the idea.

Having said that, Schon played with Santana at like 15. So yea, he's a prodigy. And don't think he doesn't like to play extended guitar solos or embellish. If you saw the Soul Sirkus tour, you'd know what I mean. He reins it in quite a bit for Journey. One of his best solos is (IMO) that one he does on the outro to "Who's Crying Now?" - tasteful and yet so cool. He's not shredding at all. He builds it over time.

But with Cain and Perry- they had huge pop sensibilities. So while Neal was a guitar god, he was with 2 guys that knew how to write hits. Same could be said for JY. He had Dennis and Tommy to reign him in. If JY (or Neal) had led Styx, it would've been a lot harder and less hit oriented than it was. Same could be said for Neal. I was just comparing Neal as a player to Shaw and Young

[StyxCollector]

I think you're missing a few key points.

1. By the time 1979/80 rolled around, Styx had success and the cracks were only growing bigger. Gregg Rolie left around that time, so Escape was his first album. They got new blood and a new lease on life for the 80s. Styx did not.

Journey already scored big with Departure. It as already a great selling album. Journey was already on the upswing- then Escape happened and it made them HUGE.

You could argue it was because someone left and another came in. What if Dennis stayed fired in 1979 and they brought in someone else? Styx already had huge success, so would it have made them bigger? We'll never know. It's not like Paradise Theater was a niche album. It sold well, had hits, and they had their biggest world tour for it.

2. Compare Journey's 1st three albums (which I like) to some of the early Styx ones. They made a very clear, do-or-die approach by taking on Fleischman for a brief time then Perry and focusing on more accessible songs. Sure, you had an instrumental here and there ("Majestic"), but overall, they abandoned who they were.

You could say the same about Styx when they went to A&M.

That was a bit of my point - but people are making it sound like Journey was always this melodic, hit making machine. Like Styx, they had to make a big change to hit the big time or become used car salesmen.

3. Good music is not about having virtuosos. It's about doing the right thing to accompany good songs. Dropping a Steve Vai solo in the middle, of say, Boat on the River would be appropriate. Extreme case, but you get the idea.

Having said that, Schon played with Santana at like 15. So yea, he's a prodigy. And don't think he doesn't like to play extended guitar solos or embellish. If you saw the Soul Sirkus tour, you'd know what I mean. He reins it in quite a bit for Journey. One of his best solos is (IMO) that one he does on the outro to "Who's Crying Now?" - tasteful and yet so cool. He's not shredding at all. He builds it over time.

But with Cain and Perry- they had huge pop sensibilities. So while Neal was a guitar god, he was with 2 guys that knew how to write hits. Same could be said for JY. He had Dennis and Tommy to reign him in. If JY (or Neal) had led Styx, it would've been a lot harder and less hit oriented than it was. Same could be said for Neal. I was just comparing Neal as a player to Shaw and Young

[/quote]

Why do you think Soul Sirkus failed? It was a vanity project for him (IMO) but it lacked commercial appeal. Say what you want about Dennis, he understood the need to be more commercial and finesse songs than writing art or hard rock for forever and a day. Renegade would have been a dirge without Dennis. Dennis' push to change ultimately broke the band (see: Cornerstone), but it was the right direction for the long haul. Change or die.

As a guitarist, I think Tommy Shaw is underrated. Listen to him when he's in more blues mode (such as Shooz).Neal, for as good as he is, he's become a bit boring because he loves to just shred these days. I liked it when he was a bit more sensitive than just being flashy. He's not Neal good, but I prefer Tommy these days to Neal.

JY has his role in Styx (for which it fits fine), but JY is not what I'd call a virtuoso or the most versatile guitarist.

[Higgy]

As a guitarist, I think Tommy Shaw is underrated. Listen to him when he's in more blues mode (such as Shooz).Neal, for as good as he is, he's become a bit boring because he loves to just shred these days. I liked it when he was a bit more sensitive than just being flashy. He's not Neal good, but I prefer Tommy these days to Neal.

Tommy's strength lies in acoustic ballads. He may want to play the hard-rockin' blues guitarist but its tantamount to watching Boy George on the A-Team - it just doesn't fit. I'm sorry but I think most would take Crystal Ball and Fooling Yourself over Shooz (which may well be the worst Styx song ever written - and I say that keeping in mind shit like "Havin' A Ball") or "On My Way".

...and yes, anyone who compares JY's talent to Neal's talent is just being silly.

[Boomchild]

Well the fact is that, with the exception of Dennis's more epic stuff, there is a lot more to Journey than Styx - lyrically, musically, artistically, etc. In Styx's best moments, they were able to fuse three extremely disparate styles into one powerful theme (to me, Paradise Theater is the best example of this). However, more often than not, you got a mish mash - great moments, but not the one great work of pop art that you got with Journey albums.

That is one of the best observations about Styx I ever read.

[Boomchild]

Why do you think Soul Sirkus failed? It was a vanity project for him (IMO) but it lacked commercial appeal. Say what you want about Dennis, he understood the need to be more commercial and finesse songs than writing art or hard rock for forever and a day. Renegade would have been a dirge without Dennis. Dennis' push to change ultimately broke the band (see: Cornerstone), but it was the right direction for the long haul. Change or die.

Very well put. I think that's it in a nutshell. I also think Dennis was getting bored with what they were doing. Who knows, maybe if they continued in the direction of what Tommy and JY wanted maybe Dennis would have left and started another project\band of his own. I think the simple fact that they asked him to return shows that they knew he was making a sound decision. It may not have been exactly their first choice to do it but I think they saw from a business standpoint it was something they had to do to stay relevant.

[Boomchild]

As a guitarist, I think Tommy Shaw is underrated. Listen to him when he's in more blues mode (such as Shooz).Neal, for as
...and yes, anyone who compares JY's talent to Neal's talent is just being silly.

JY has been more of the faceless part of the band. Take the term "The Tall Blond Guy From Styx" for example. He hasn't really added anything to Styx that someone else could have done. Being in the shadows of Tommy and Dennis for the majority of their life span I think has bothered him to an extent. just my opinion though.

[Archetype]

I really don't think that Styx could top what Journey is releasing soon.

Edge of the Moment is better than anything Styx has put out in the past two decades.

[Baron Von Bielski]

I really don't think that Styx could top what Journey is releasing soon.

Edge of the Moment is better than anything Styx has put out in the past two decades.

I wouldn't say that. Nothing special about that song at all. One with Everything from Cyclorama is Styx's best song from the last two decades which IMO is better than that.

[Boomchild]

I really don't think that Styx could top what Journey is releasing soon.

Edge of the Moment is better than anything Styx has put out in the past two decades.

Styx isn't looking to "top" anyone at this point. They are simply riding out the rest of their career and trying to capture as much money from it as they can. The days of Styx looking to be fresh and creative is over and has been for quite some time.

[Rocker Chic]

All analyzing aside, I think it's just a lot simpler than that: Journey gets far more radio airplay! However, you will also note that the songs being played, have and, probably always will be, the Perry-era songs. For the most part, you will not hear any new stuff from any older bands being played on most high-profile radio stations. Talent/popularity rarely has much to do with anything anymore. :::shrug:::

The only radio I listen to is at work and they play both Journey & Styx, but Journey gets a bit more airplay, albeit the same songs over and over again though. I've decided it's more important what is loaded into my CD player, rather than what is played on the radio that I hardly listen to anyway.

[cittadeeno23]

Once again, all a matter of opinion. I just listened to that new Journey song, and I can (just off the top of my head) name several Styx songs from the last 2 decades that I like better.

These are the Times
One with Everthing
Everything is Cool
Heavy Water

And there are several songs off of Dennis' last album that I like better.
But, I'm a STYX fan. I'm sure Journey fans see it differently.
By the way, I liked "Lights" (Journey Tribute band) Better live than I did the current version of Journey (who I saw last summer).