JAPAN Mini LP SHM-CD

[StyxCollector]

For what it's worth, the original KWH CD sounds better to my ears than the Japan 2009 which has the highs boosted too much. The original CD is pretty faithful to the vinyl too.

KWH never sounded horrible on CD. Although being faithful to vinyl isn't always a good thing. I don't understand the obsession with vinyl and I grew up in the vinyl era. Vinyl isn't always a guarantee of better sounding anything.

[Everett]

For what it's worth, the original KWH CD sounds better to my ears than the Japan 2009 which has the highs boosted too much. The original CD is pretty faithful to the vinyl too.

KWH never sounded horrible on CD. Although being faithful to vinyl isn't always a good thing. I don't understand the obsession with vinyl and I grew up in the vinyl era. Vinyl isn't always a guarantee of better sounding anything.

I think i have a healthy obbsession with vinyl. I bought all the old records for nostalgia and because i wasn't even alive during vinyl's hey day.

[ItsMyLife]

For what it's worth, the original KWH CD sounds better to my ears than the Japan 2009 which has the highs boosted too much. The original CD is pretty faithful to the vinyl too.

KWH never sounded horrible on CD. Although being faithful to vinyl isn't always a good thing. I don't understand the obsession with vinyl and I grew up in the vinyl era. Vinyl isn't always a guarantee of better sounding anything.

If the vinyl is the way the music was originally released then it is certainly something to compare to. It's not always what you shoot for I agree, but in this instance if you heard the GI needledrop vs. the CD versions of that album, you'd understand. For whatever reason, the vinyl version of GI is a big departure from the CD versions released.

[Boomchild]

Just got my limited edition "Escape" 180g vinyl. Best this album has EVER sounded. Painful to think about how good Paradise Theater would sound on this format.

It has nothing to do with format or things like vinyl thickness. It has everything to do with the quality of the source (even if not the master tape) and the mastering that was used. 180 gram vinyl, gold CD, SHM - none of it means jack crap with a bad mastering job.

You are exactly right. A shitty mastering job will sound shitty no matter what format it is in.

[Boomchild]

For what it's worth, the original KWH CD sounds better to my ears than the Japan 2009 which has the highs boosted too much. The original CD is pretty faithful to the vinyl too.

KWH never sounded horrible on CD. Although being faithful to vinyl isn't always a good thing. I don't understand the obsession with vinyl and I grew up in the vinyl era. Vinyl isn't always a guarantee of better sounding anything.

I think part of the reason for this notion is that a huge amount of CDs released that were originally released on vinyl were not properly remastered for their CD release. Thus resulting in fair to poor sonic performance. I remember when Joe Jackson released his "Body and Soul" album he produced two different masters. One for LP and one for CD. He knew that for it to sound good on both formats you had to have masters made specifically for each one.

[ItsMyLife]

I don't understand the obsession with vinyl

If you heard the detail in these 24bit 96kHz transfers, you might understand.

[StyxCollector]

I don't understand the obsession with vinyl

If you heard the detail in these 24bit 96kHz transfers, you might understand.

Actually, if I wanted to hear the vinyl I'd just walk over and pull one of the many versions of GI I have. I can rip my own if I really wanted to make a needledrop (I don't). I don't need to hear a fan made needledrop from a questionable source (that they may have done other manipulations, too, such as leveling and EQ).

Vinyl is VERY source/country dependent. CDs for the most part used the same master worldwide (but not always), whereas with vinyl, not all countries used the same master more often than not. One of the reasons that companies like Mobile Fidelity and Nautilus existed was due to a lack of quality in vinyl and mastering to some. I mean, some forums are dedicated to looking in the deadwax looking for the matricies and writing to see who mastered a piece of vinyl to see if it is "the one" a lot of people like.

And remember that vinyl has some limitations that some people like (i.e. you EQ bass differently and don't make it so hot the needle jumps), and others don't. GI was released on vinyl, R2R, 8-track, and cassette back in the day. You can't say that vinyl was its original and only intended medium since it had four formats. Actually, a R2R dubbed from the original master (which it's not) would be a better copy so that should blow away vinyl Just sayin'.

Last, but not least, what you like in terms of sound may not be what someone else likes. Some like more bass, others more treble, some a more flat presentation. So what pressing you like may be like nails on a chalkboard to others.

[StyxCollector]

For what it's worth, the original KWH CD sounds better to my ears than the Japan 2009 which has the highs boosted too much. The original CD is pretty faithful to the vinyl too.

KWH never sounded horrible on CD. Although being faithful to vinyl isn't always a good thing. I don't understand the obsession with vinyl and I grew up in the vinyl era. Vinyl isn't always a guarantee of better sounding anything.

I think i have a healthy obbsession with vinyl. I bought all the old records for nostalgia and because i wasn't even alive during vinyl's hey day.

Would you like a cookie?

[Everett]

For what it's worth, the original KWH CD sounds better to my ears than the Japan 2009 which has the highs boosted too much. The original CD is pretty faithful to the vinyl too.

KWH never sounded horrible on CD. Although being faithful to vinyl isn't always a good thing. I don't understand the obsession with vinyl and I grew up in the vinyl era. Vinyl isn't always a guarantee of better sounding anything.

I think i have a healthy obbsession with vinyl. I bought all the old records for nostalgia and because i wasn't even alive during vinyl's hey day.

Would you like a cookie?

Sure you got any macadamia?

[Baron Von Bielski]

My allegiance falls on the side of CD's. It's what I own and prefer to. I will admit records are unique because of the packaging and the size allowed them to do a lot with it. Albums can be very cool in that regard, but overall they're just not my cup of tea.

[Higgy]

My allegiance falls on the side of CD's. It's what I own and prefer to. I will admit records are unique because of the packaging and the size allowed them to do a lot with it. Albums can be very cool in that regard, but overall they're just not my cup of tea.

You continue to astound me with your amazing insight. Reading your words is like digesting a fine malbec.

[Baron Von Bielski]

My allegiance falls on the side of CD's. It's what I own and prefer to. I will admit records are unique because of the packaging and the size allowed them to do a lot with it. Albums can be very cool in that regard, but overall they're just not my cup of tea.

You continue to astound me with your amazing insight. Reading your words is like digesting a fine malbec.

Well thank you very much. I can die a happy man now.

[ItsMyLife]

Vinyl is VERY source/country dependent. CDs for the most part used the same master worldwide (but not always), whereas with vinyl, not all countries used the same master more often than not. One of the reasons that companies like Mobile Fidelity and Nautilus existed was due to a lack of quality in vinyl and mastering to some. I mean, some forums are dedicated to looking in the deadwax looking for the matricies and writing to see who mastered a piece of vinyl to see if it is "the one" a lot of people like.

Actually, these needle drops were made from Mobile Fidelity / Nautilus / A&M Audiophile.

And remember that vinyl has some limitations that some people like (i.e. you EQ bass differently and don't make it so hot the needle jumps), and others don't. GI was released on vinyl, R2R, 8-track, and cassette back in the day. You can't say that vinyl was its original and only intended medium since it had four formats. Actually, a R2R dubbed from the original master (which it's not) would be a better copy so that should blow away vinyl Just sayin'.

Yes, I know this. But being truthful, vinyl was the predominant medium back in the day and the vast majority of people heard it that way. Vinyl was also of higher quality sound reproduction than cassette or 8track and most R2R can deliver.

Last, but not least, what you like in terms of sound may not be what someone else likes. Some like more bass, others more treble, some a more flat presentation. So what pressing you like may be like nails on a chalkboard to others.

Yes, I know this too. And there are good needle drops and crappy ones. These seem to have been made with the utmost of care though. I think we can all agree that the CDs of GI don't sound that good... so when I listened to this against them, it was a big improvement.

Also, these are 24-bit / 96kHz needledrops.... so they have that advantage everything else being equal.

Good mastering and high-res = ooooh yeah.

[StyxCollector]

Actually, these needle drops were made from Mobile Fidelity / Nautilus / A&M Audiophile.

The MoFi GI is not the be-all-end-all. I think some of the standard pressings I've heard were pretty good. The MoFi isn't bad, mind you. I never loved the Canadian A&M Audiophile of GI.

Yes, I know this. But being truthful, vinyl was the predominant medium back in the day and the vast majority of people heard it that way. Vinyl was also of higher quality sound reproduction than cassette or 8track and most R2R can deliver.

It was probably vinyl and 8-track. Cassettes were not as popular until after GI I believe.

Yes, I know this too. And there are good needle drops and crappy ones. These seem to have been made with the utmost of care though. I think we can all agree that the CDs of GI don't sound that good... so when I listened to this against them, it was a big improvement.

I disagree. I like two of the three major versions (original & SHM), but not the Audio Fidelity. I've said it before and I'll say it again: the original CDs of PT, GI, Kilroy, and Cornerstone were not bad. Po8, CB, Equniox, and CITA were terrible.

What I'm hoping for is a SHM-SACD of at least one Styx album.

[Baron Von Bielski]

It'd be nice if Styx got the same remaster attention that Genesis did in 2007. I am a big Genesis fan as well (yes I know, another uncool band) and their releases were well done IMO. Each album contained 2 discs. An above average remaster and a DVD that contained the album in DTS 5.1-channel surround sound, Dolby Digital 5.1-channel surround sound, and Dolby Digital stereo. Of course Europe got the SACD/CD hybrids, but the DTS surround sound is a slightly compressed version of the surround sound on the SACD's... and the Dolby surround sound is said to be a bit inferior in quality to the DTS. The technology is out there... they did it for Cyclorama... but right now I'm satisfied with the SHM-CD's I own.

[Baron Von Bielski]

I disagree. I like two of the three major versions (original & SHM), but not the Audio Fidelity. I've said it before and I'll say it again: the original CDs of PT, GI, Kilroy, and Cornerstone were not bad. Po8, CB, Equniox, and CITA were terrible.

What I'm hoping for is a SHM-SACD of at least one Styx album.

That would be nice.

... and you're right, CITA is awful on CD.

[StyxCollector]

... and you're right, CITA is awful on CD.

The SHM is night and day on that one. If you get one SHM, that's the one to get.

What's funny is how different the Westwood One radio LPs are from the final product.

[StyxCollector]

It'd be nice if Styx got the same remaster attention that Genesis did in 2007. I am a big Genesis fan as well (yes I know, another uncool band) and their releases were well done IMO. Each album contained 2 discs. An above average remaster and a DVD that contained the album in DTS 5.1-channel surround sound, Dolby Digital 5.1-channel surround sound, and Dolby Digital stereo. Of course Europe got the SACD/CD hybrids, but the DTS surround sound is a slightly compressed version of the surround sound on the SACD's... and the Dolby surround sound is said to be a bit inferior in quality to the DTS. The technology is out there... they did it for Cyclorama... but right now I'm satisfied with the SHM-CD's I own.

The Genesis ones were a big missed opportunity on a lot of levels. The biggest complaints are two things:
1. The remixed stereo
2. The bad mastering

As part of this campaign, Genesis remixed everything (stereo and 5.1). The original mixes are permanently out of print. This is much like saying the Regeneration versions will here on out and forevermore be THE versions of those Styx songs. Most of the mixes were close, some missed a few parts, and others were not as successful. The overall mixes for the 5.1 were pretty good.

However, the mastering on the first two boxes is pretty terrible, and I'm not usually a complainer unless it's really bad. I can remember getting the first box from Japan (the only other country to get SACD for the studio boxes and the only place to get NTSC DVDs with SACDs) covering AToTT through Duke and I was excited. Then I popped in Duke and couldn't believe how bad the mastering was. By the time the Gabriel era box was released they sorted out many of the mastering issues (mix issues for stereo still a problem), but it was too late.

THe extras were for the most part cool and you did get one disc of b-sides per box and a documentary for each album. SOme of those were actually pretty good.

But as a whole, those reissues were unsatisfying and had they just done proper hi-rez of the old stereo mixes with a new 5.1 mix, we would have been better off.

One thing you're missing here is that while Genesis needed a label to release them, they own their masters so they did all of that on their own dime. Styx doesn't own their masters so anything like that is pretty much impossible.

If you want SACD reissues done right, see Depeche Mode.

[Baron Von Bielski]

It'd be nice if Styx got the same remaster attention that Genesis did in 2007. I am a big Genesis fan as well (yes I know, another uncool band) and their releases were well done IMO. Each album contained 2 discs. An above average remaster and a DVD that contained the album in DTS 5.1-channel surround sound, Dolby Digital 5.1-channel surround sound, and Dolby Digital stereo. Of course Europe got the SACD/CD hybrids, but the DTS surround sound is a slightly compressed version of the surround sound on the SACD's... and the Dolby surround sound is said to be a bit inferior in quality to the DTS. The technology is out there... they did it for Cyclorama... but right now I'm satisfied with the SHM-CD's I own.

The Genesis ones were a big missed opportunity on a lot of levels. The biggest complaints are two things:
1. The remixed stereo
2. The bad mastering

As part of this campaign, Genesis remixed everything (stereo and 5.1). The original mixes are permanently out of print. This is much like saying the Regeneration versions will here on out and forevermore be THE versions of those Styx songs. Most of the mixes were close, some missed a few parts, and others were not as successful. The overall mixes for the 5.1 were pretty good.

However, the mastering on the first two boxes is pretty terrible, and I'm not usually a complainer unless it's really bad. I can remember getting the first box from Japan (the only other country to get SACD for the studio boxes and the only place to get NTSC DVDs with SACDs) covering AToTT through Duke and I was excited. Then I popped in Duke and couldn't believe how bad the mastering was. By the time the Gabriel era box was released they sorted out many of the mastering issues (mix issues for stereo still a problem), but it was too late.

THe extras were for the most part cool and you did get one disc of b-sides per box and a documentary for each album. SOme of those were actually pretty good.

But as a whole, those reissues were unsatisfying and had they just done proper hi-rez of the old stereo mixes with a new 5.1 mix, we would have been better off.

One thing you're missing here is that while Genesis needed a label to release them, they own their masters so they did all of that on their own dime. Styx doesn't own their masters so anything like that is pretty much impossible.

If you want SACD reissues done right, see Depeche Mode.

Good point on the master ownership. I hadn't realized Genesis owned their own.

[Boomchild]

It'd be nice if Styx got the same remaster attention that Genesis did in 2007. I am a big Genesis fan as well (yes I know, another uncool band) and their releases were well done IMO. Each album contained 2 discs. An above average remaster and a DVD that contained the album in DTS 5.1-channel surround sound, Dolby Digital 5.1-channel surround sound, and Dolby Digital stereo. Of course Europe got the SACD/CD hybrids, but the DTS surround sound is a slightly compressed version of the surround sound on the SACD's... and the Dolby surround sound is said to be a bit inferior in quality to the DTS. The technology is out there... they did it for Cyclorama... but right now I'm satisfied with the SHM-CD's I own.

The Genesis ones were a big missed opportunity on a lot of levels. The biggest complaints are two things:
1. The remixed stereo
2. The bad mastering

As part of this campaign, Genesis remixed everything (stereo and 5.1). The original mixes are permanently out of print. This is much like saying the Regeneration versions will here on out and forevermore be THE versions of those Styx songs. Most of the mixes were close, some missed a few parts, and others were not as successful. The overall mixes for the 5.1 were pretty good.

However, the mastering on the first two boxes is pretty terrible, and I'm not usually a complainer unless it's really bad. I can remember getting the first box from Japan (the only other country to get SACD for the studio boxes and the only place to get NTSC DVDs with SACDs) covering AToTT through Duke and I was excited. Then I popped in Duke and couldn't believe how bad the mastering was. By the time the Gabriel era box was released they sorted out many of the mastering issues (mix issues for stereo still a problem), but it was too late.

THe extras were for the most part cool and you did get one disc of b-sides per box and a documentary for each album. SOme of those were actually pretty good.

But as a whole, those reissues were unsatisfying and had they just done proper hi-rez of the old stereo mixes with a new 5.1 mix, we would have been better off.

One thing you're missing here is that while Genesis needed a label to release them, they own their masters so they did all of that on their own dime. Styx doesn't own their masters so anything like that is pretty much impossible.

If you want SACD reissues done right, see Depeche Mode.

Good point on the master ownership. I hadn't realized Genesis owned their own.

I find it interesting that Dennis did not insist on ownership of the Styx masters. Being the fact how some people label him as a "control freak".

[Baron Von Bielski]

It'd be nice if Styx got the same remaster attention that Genesis did in 2007. I am a big Genesis fan as well (yes I know, another uncool band) and their releases were well done IMO. Each album contained 2 discs. An above average remaster and a DVD that contained the album in DTS 5.1-channel surround sound, Dolby Digital 5.1-channel surround sound, and Dolby Digital stereo. Of course Europe got the SACD/CD hybrids, but the DTS surround sound is a slightly compressed version of the surround sound on the SACD's... and the Dolby surround sound is said to be a bit inferior in quality to the DTS. The technology is out there... they did it for Cyclorama... but right now I'm satisfied with the SHM-CD's I own.

The Genesis ones were a big missed opportunity on a lot of levels. The biggest complaints are two things:
1. The remixed stereo
2. The bad mastering

As part of this campaign, Genesis remixed everything (stereo and 5.1). The original mixes are permanently out of print. This is much like saying the Regeneration versions will here on out and forevermore be THE versions of those Styx songs. Most of the mixes were close, some missed a few parts, and others were not as successful. The overall mixes for the 5.1 were pretty good.

However, the mastering on the first two boxes is pretty terrible, and I'm not usually a complainer unless it's really bad. I can remember getting the first box from Japan (the only other country to get SACD for the studio boxes and the only place to get NTSC DVDs with SACDs) covering AToTT through Duke and I was excited. Then I popped in Duke and couldn't believe how bad the mastering was. By the time the Gabriel era box was released they sorted out many of the mastering issues (mix issues for stereo still a problem), but it was too late.

THe extras were for the most part cool and you did get one disc of b-sides per box and a documentary for each album. SOme of those were actually pretty good.

But as a whole, those reissues were unsatisfying and had they just done proper hi-rez of the old stereo mixes with a new 5.1 mix, we would have been better off.

One thing you're missing here is that while Genesis needed a label to release them, they own their masters so they did all of that on their own dime. Styx doesn't own their masters so anything like that is pretty much impossible.

If you want SACD reissues done right, see Depeche Mode.

Good point on the master ownership. I hadn't realized Genesis owned their own.

I find it interesting that Dennis did not insist on ownership of the Styx masters. Being the fact how some people label him as a "control freak".

He's a smart guy. I figure he could have found a way to swing it. A&M must have insisted on it back in 75 when they signed them. Not much of a choice there. First big contract??? Where do I sign!

[Boomchild]

It'd be nice if Styx got the same remaster attention that Genesis did in 2007. I am a big Genesis fan as well (yes I know, another uncool band) and their releases were well done IMO. Each album contained 2 discs. An above average remaster and a DVD that contained the album in DTS 5.1-channel surround sound, Dolby Digital 5.1-channel surround sound, and Dolby Digital stereo. Of course Europe got the SACD/CD hybrids, but the DTS surround sound is a slightly compressed version of the surround sound on the SACD's... and the Dolby surround sound is said to be a bit inferior in quality to the DTS. The technology is out there... they did it for Cyclorama... but right now I'm satisfied with the SHM-CD's I own.

The Genesis ones were a big missed opportunity on a lot of levels. The biggest complaints are two things:
1. The remixed stereo
2. The bad mastering

As part of this campaign, Genesis remixed everything (stereo and 5.1). The original mixes are permanently out of print. This is much like saying the Regeneration versions will here on out and forevermore be THE versions of those Styx songs. Most of the mixes were close, some missed a few parts, and others were not as successful. The overall mixes for the 5.1 were pretty good.

However, the mastering on the first two boxes is pretty terrible, and I'm not usually a complainer unless it's really bad. I can remember getting the first box from Japan (the only other country to get SACD for the studio boxes and the only place to get NTSC DVDs with SACDs) covering AToTT through Duke and I was excited. Then I popped in Duke and couldn't believe how bad the mastering was. By the time the Gabriel era box was released they sorted out many of the mastering issues (mix issues for stereo still a problem), but it was too late.

THe extras were for the most part cool and you did get one disc of b-sides per box and a documentary for each album. SOme of those were actually pretty good.

But as a whole, those reissues were unsatisfying and had they just done proper hi-rez of the old stereo mixes with a new 5.1 mix, we would have been better off.

One thing you're missing here is that while Genesis needed a label to release them, they own their masters so they did all of that on their own dime. Styx doesn't own their masters so anything like that is pretty much impossible.

If you want SACD reissues done right, see Depeche Mode.

Good point on the master ownership. I hadn't realized Genesis owned their own.

I find it interesting that Dennis did not insist on ownership of the Styx masters. Being the fact how some people label him as a "control freak".

He's a smart guy. I figure he could have found a way to swing it. A&M must have insisted on it back in 75 when they signed them. Not much of a choice there. First big contract??? Where do I sign!

I feel that both A&M and UNI blew it big time with Styx's back catalog. Too late now. Just goes to show you that even though you may be the big kid on the block doesn't mean you make the best decisions.

[ItsMyLife]

[As part of this campaign, Genesis remixed everything (stereo and 5.1). The original mixes are permanently out of print.

Nothing is permanent, though they want us to think so.

Eventually they'll make a big deal out of reintroducing the original Genesis mixes remastered yet again but probably packed with outtakes, demos or live stuff.

Ozzy is now re-releasing the original mixes of his first two albums which he had re-recorded the bass/drums on some years back and re-released. So now we're getting the original mixes which were once thought to be out of print forever.

It's all marketing.

[Baron Von Bielski]

[As part of this campaign, Genesis remixed everything (stereo and 5.1). The original mixes are permanently out of print.

Nothing is permanent, though they want us to think so.

Eventually they'll make a big deal out of reintroducing the original Genesis mixes remastered yet again but probably packed with outtakes, demos or live stuff.

Ozzy is now re-releasing the original mixes of his first two albums which he had re-recorded the bass/drums on some years back and re-released. So now we're getting the original mixes which were once thought to be out of print forever.

It's all marketing.

Whatever they can do to boost sales.

[ItsMyLife]

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