Terry Kath era Chicago vs Classic Toto

[Don]

When it comes to multiple vocalist pop-rock bands, I would say that the Terry Kath era Chicago would give the guys in the classic Toto era a serious run for there money. As there isn't a Chicago forum on here, I figure the best place to post this would where the band most resembling Chicago resides (IMO). I know Chicago's popularity really took off with Bill Champlin entering the picture but I'm looking at this as more of a pound for pound comparison between the two bands when it came to quality vocalists and musicians so the Kath era is the one that does it for me.

[lordreo]

When it comes to multiple vocalist pop-rock bands, I would say that the Terry Kath era Chicago would give the guys in the classic Toto era a serious run for there money. As there isn't a Chicago forum on here, I figure the best place to post this would where the band most resembling Chicago resides (IMO). I know Chicago's popularity really took off with Bill Champlin entering the picture but I'm looking at this as more of a pound for pound comparison between the two bands when it came to quality vocalists and musicians so the Kath era is the one that does it for me.

Could you maybe be a Little more specific? This covers like 10 albums I don't know Chicago all that well, so I'd like to know what albums to examine in order to understand what you mean.

[Don]

When it comes to multiple vocalist pop-rock bands, I would say that the Terry Kath era Chicago would give the guys in the classic Toto era a serious run for there money. As there isn't a Chicago forum on here, I figure the best place to post this would where the band most resembling Chicago resides (IMO). I know Chicago's popularity really took off with Bill Champlin entering the picture but I'm looking at this as more of a pound for pound comparison between the two bands when it came to quality vocalists and musicians so the Kath era is the one that does it for me.

Could you maybe be a Little more specific? This covers like 10 albums I don't know Chicago all that well, so I'd like to know what albums to examine in order to understand what you mean.

I'm not singling out albums in particular. I'm saying for those time periods If you matched up musicians and vocalists with each band.
Terry Kath - Steve Lukather
Jeff Porcaro - Danny Seraphine
Robert Lamm - Steve Porcaro/ David Paich
Mike Porcaro - Peter Cetera

Something along those lines, each bands strengths and weaknesses matched against each other, say Chicago 67-78 vs Toto 78-90.

Chicago Transit Authority -Chicago XI
Toto - The Seventh One

You get the idea?

[lordreo]

Thanks for clearing that up. Sorry for misunderstanding Since I don't really know the Chicago guys I don't have an opinion here.

[Don]

Thanks for clearing that up. Sorry for misunderstanding Since I don't really know the Chicago guys I don't have an opinion here.

It's cool. With at least seven threads focused on the Steve/Bobby feud I figured I'd come at things from a different angle.

[WalrusOct9]

Tough to compare. I would take Toto's "hits" over the vast majority of Chicago's "hits" any day, but I absolutely love the innovation & experimentation on the first three Chicago albums, something Toto never really attempted.

In the same way it bums me out that Toto is mostly known for "Africa," it kills me how terribly Chicago's early jazz-rock period is ignored because of how damaged the brand became in the late 70's and 80's.

[Don]

Tough to compare. I would take Toto's "hits" over the vast majority of Chicago's "hits" any day, but I absolutely love the innovation & experimentation on the first three Chicago albums, something Toto never really attempted.

In the same way it bums me out that Toto is mostly known for "Africa," it kills me how terribly Chicago's early jazz-rock period is ignored because of how damaged the brand became in the late 70's and 80's.

Yeah, before Chicago started releasing nothing but Cetera fronted songs, I thought they had great balance in their albums with the rock/jazz mix.

I think I only knew of four Toto songs for the longest; Rosanna, Hold The line, Africa and I'll Be Over You where with Chicago it was around a dozen that got some recognition before the Foster era completely changed the dynamic and direction of the band.

[DracIsBack]

When it comes to multiple vocalist pop-rock bands, I would say that the Terry Kath era Chicago would give the guys in the classic Toto era a serious run for there money. As there isn't a Chicago forum on here, I figure the best place to post this would where the band most resembling Chicago resides (IMO).

Surprised there isn't one, given how large that band was. Chicago and Toto are my two favorite bands. Those Columbia era Chicago albums are absolute classic. Terry was a monster.

I know Chicago's popularity really took off with Bill Champlin entering the picture

That was wave two. Chicago with Terry Kath was enormous and filled stadiums. For example, their first album, Chicago Transit Authority, went on and off the charts consistently for 6 years. In 1975, the first eight Chicago albums were on the Billboard album chart at the same time. They were the first rock band to sell out a week at Carnagie Hall.


They actually have about 40 top forty singles!

before the Foster era completely changed the dynamic and direction of the band.

where with Chicago it was around a dozen that got some recognition [/quote]

Chicago was always an evolving sound, which is what got me interested in them. They had so many different singers and songwriters that there are all kinds of styles on the various albums (kind of like Toto). Foster was a different style of producer (designed to get them on the radio again) but I view it as just one of their many styles.

I grew up on Foster's era so I have a fondness, though it's dated in that they were exploring the (then new) midi and drum tech. Foster wanted control and I didn't like seeing Danny replaced by a drum machine, the horns playing sequencers and Peter Cetera's basslines (Cetera was one killer bassist and often forgotten in this area because of his vocals) with a moog synth bass.

[WalrusOct9]

The production isn't what bothers me about Chicago's 80's records as much as the fact that they're all bogged down with wimpy ballads. At least when Heart sold out and did the same thing, their ballads still rocked a bit.

[DracIsBack]

The production isn't what bothers me about Chicago's 80's records as much as the fact that they're all bogged down with wimpy ballads. At least when Heart sold out and did the same thing, their ballads still rocked a bit.

It's over-stated greatly. Go back and listen to Chicago's 80's albums. People seem to remember them as being albums with 9 ballads on each one. They aren't.

[WalrusOct9]

It's over-stated greatly. Go back and listen to Chicago's 80's albums. People seem to remember them as being albums with 9 ballads on each one. They aren't.

Every once in awhile I'll do this and see if anything jumps out at me, and it usually doesn't. Maybe it's just that the band had so little to do with the music. Never really been able to take bands seriously who rely on 'donated' tunes. One or two is okay, but man, Chicago really pushed the limits of legitimacy that decade.

[Brett]

The production isn't what bothers me about Chicago's 80's records as much as the fact that they're all bogged down with wimpy ballads. At least when Heart sold out and did the same thing, their ballads still rocked a bit.

It's over-stated greatly. Go back and listen to Chicago's 80's albums. People seem to remember them as being albums with 9 ballads on each one. They aren't.

The real irony is that the ballad ratio increased dramatically after Peter Cetera (who always gets the 'blame' for the 'ballad band' tag) departed.

[DracIsBack]

It's over-stated greatly. Go back and listen to Chicago's 80's albums. People seem to remember them as being albums with 9 ballads on each one. They aren't.

Every once in awhile I'll do this and see if anything jumps out at me, and it usually doesn't. Maybe it's just that the band had so little to do with the music. Never really been able to take bands seriously who rely on 'donated' tunes. One or two is okay, but man, Chicago really pushed the limits of legitimacy that decade.

18 and (especially) 19 had this problem. 16 and 17 are almost all band written

[Sundet]

21 was pretty much band-written as well. I think the band were allowed by the record company to write that one themselves on the back of the success of 19, but what emerged was quite bland although I don't think 21 is as bad as many seem to think. If It Were You, for example, is amazing.

[DracIsBack]

The real irony is that the ballad ratio increased dramatically after Peter Cetera (who always gets the 'blame' for the 'ballad band' tag) departed.

Yeah - their memory is a bit 'suspect' in this area. They lost all credibility about it with me when they went on a tirade about how Peter Cetera/Diane Warren/David Foster/Warner forced them to be a ballad band during the time they were recording STONE OF SISYPHUS. Then they turned around and kept releasing GREATEST HITS of those tunes and adding one or two new songs that sounded like what they were complaining about.

write that one themselves on the back of the success of 19

I read original drummer Danny Serephine's biography and was surprised to learn that part of why 19 had so many outside songs. I thought it was a record label thing, but Serephine said it was because 19 was rushed to get to market before Peter Cetera released his ONE MORE STORY album. When they did their first post Cetera album, Chicago 18, his album did better. When he started working on the followup, the producer went on a world tour with Madonna, so Cetera put the album on hold and went to produce Agnetha Faltskog's solo album. Chicago jumped in and quickly recorded a new album to get it out first.

Yeah, before Chicago started releasing nothing but Cetera fronted songs, I thought they had great balance in their albums with the rock/jazz mix.

They always had the balance on the albums in that there were multiple singers. But yeah, radio, the label and the public all gravitated to Cetera sung singles and (sadly) ballads as opposed to uptempo tunes.

You really started seeing it around Chicago X. IF YOU LEAVE ME NOW was initially a throwaway tune that became a gigantic hit. Then the Pankow sung YOU ARE ON MY MIND barely made the top 50. Again on Chicago XI, Baby What A Big Suprise went top five, but the Kath sung single and the Lamm sung single didn't hit top forty. They led out of the gate in 13 with a Dacus sung single and it stiffed.


By the time they got to Warner, it felt like that was all the label wanted to release. 16 and 17 had plenty of songs sung by Lamm and Champlin and songs written by people other than Cetera but Cetera fronted tunes dominated. Up-tempo singles outright tanked (What You're Missing) or did ok but not as good as the ballads (STAY THE NIGHT, ALONG COMES A WOMAN). Tunes without horns dominated over tunes with horns.

Then Cetera left and they turned to outside writers. Worse, the songs started becoming even simpler musically.

I grew up with those albums and I like many of the tunes, but you could see the heart and energy and effort being sucked out of the band and it turning into a touring oldies show.

HARD TO SAY I'M SORRY was (IMO) a classic Chicago tune. Foster's production was great and Cetera sounded absolutely spectacular on it. But I would have been much happier if they had just treated its success as an isolated incident instead of trying to re-create it. Maybe the public would remember Chicago (correctly) as a band that could pull off many styles instead of an 80s ballad band

[jrny84]

Tough to compare. I would take Toto's "hits" over the vast majority of Chicago's "hits" any day, but I absolutely love the innovation & experimentation on the first three Chicago albums, something Toto never really attempted.

In the same way it bums me out that Toto is mostly known for "Africa," it kills me how terribly Chicago's early jazz-rock period is ignored because of how damaged the brand became in the late 70's and 80's.

Yeah, before Chicago started releasing nothing but Cetera fronted songs, I thought they had great balance in their albums with the rock/jazz mix.

I think I only knew of four Toto songs for the longest; Rosanna, Hold The line, Africa and I'll Be Over You where with Chicago it was around a dozen that got some recognition before the Foster era completely changed the dynamic and direction of the band.

Personally, I like and have an appreciation for all the different "sounds" of Chicago. I like the Cetera era Chicago, when he became the forefront of the band...alot of those tunes were good songs. After Cetera left and they brought in Jason Scheff to take the leads, I became less interested in them. I like many of the Bill Champlin songs, but Scheff has nowhere near the range or vocal talent of Cetera. Now I see Bill Champlin is not even in the band anymore, what a joke. Anyways, for me I would choose classic Chicago over classic Toto. I am a fan of both though.