Happy B-day Pieces Of Eight

[gr8dane]

Dennis also didn't like the Crystal Ball album- which is brilliant.

I guess I prefer the songs that Dennis didn't like of his own,over the ones he did .
Queen of Spades is a killer track.His Crystal Ball songs are great too.

[cittadeeno23]

Regardless of what Dennis' actual thoughts were on PO8, whether he thought his contributions were not up to par or if he was unhappy that he didn't write a hit, either way I think he is being too hard on himself. I personally love his contributions to the album.

Toph, I also would have considered releasing the title track as a single, but I'm not too sure how it would have done at "pop" radio. It was a bit progressive I think for that format. They would have had to edit it or "dumb" it down. But even without a top 10 pop hit, PO8 went triple platinum (at least). Back in the late 70's Styx got a LOT of airplay on FM rock stations. I remember hearing Great White Hope, I'm OK, PO8, and of course Renegade and BCM on all of the Rock Stations in San Jose. Styx was a major force on the Rock stations back then. Billboard didn't start tracking Rock Station Charts until the 80's so it's hard to tell how well they did, but they got tons of airplay on those stations in the 70's. PO8 (the album) was huge. Everyone I knew had it. I remember the gigantic display Tower Records had to promote the album when it came out. I tried to get the guy in the store to give it to me a few months later but he wouldn't!!

[masque]

If that is true (that DDY didn't want Po8 released as a single), I am amazed at the amount of control these guys had in determining the singles or not releasing singles (think also First Time and HWbHB). If I am the record company I tell them to go to hell and we'll release what we want to thank you

i think after an artist has a certain amount of success then they do gain more control and how things are done even in consideration of what the record company wants.

But only to a certain extent.....I think POE the single not being released likely had more to do with the record company agreeing that it wasnt strong enough to release vs. DDY being opposed and the record being all for it and DDY just having more power than the record company.

in the case of first time I think that boils down to the threat of tommy quitting the band that brought that about.....i think everyone saw $$$$ signs in their eyes with first time being released (everyone being DDY and the record company) and it took the massive threat of losing a key member to acquire the power to have the release stopped.

[Everett]

If that is true (that DDY didn't want Po8 released as a single), I am amazed at the amount of control these guys had in determining the singles or not releasing singles (think also First Time and HWbHB). If I am the record company I tell them to go to hell and we'll release what we want to thank you

i think after an artist has a certain amount of success then they do gain more control and how things are done even in consideration of what the record company wants.

But only to a certain extent.....I think POE the single not being released likely had more to do with the record company agreeing that it wasnt strong enough to release vs. DDY being opposed and the record being all for it and DDY just having more power than the record company.

in the case of first time I think that boils down to the threat of tommy quitting the band that brought that about.....i think everyone saw $$$$ signs in their eyes with first time being released (everyone being DDY and the record company) and it took the massive threat of losing a key member to acquire the power to have the release stopped.

It sucks that tommy had to do that and i know he wasn't in his right mind (drugs, booze etc) but i get why he did it.
Like he said in behind the music they were a ROCK band not barry manilow. I bet if JY were the one that threatened
to quit a & m wouldn't have cared and went on to release it. Poor guy

[Toph]

I guess that is what I don't get. What about Po8 (track) makes it NOT single worthy? I love the melody of the verses and the middle part has a classical bravado to it. No stranger than the odyssey of CSA. Someone said, ok sing for the day is it vs. po8. I would have loved to hear that discussion. Not taking anything away from sftd, but would love to understand how those decisions were made.

[yogi]

Rock/paper/scissors - 2 out of 3

[cittadeeno23]

Yeah, I have no idea how those decisions were made regarding single releases. They could have edited out the middle part of PO8 just like they did with CSA for the pop charts. I actually think the middle parts of both those songs are the coolest parts! But they don't usually fly on pop radio because they make the songs too long.
Styx had quite a few missed chances with non-released singles. "First Time" would have been a top 10, no doubt. I also think "Haven't We Been Here Before" would have gone top 10. I always thought "Never Say Never" and even "Lights" had possibilities to be hits. Cornerstone could have been massive. When it first came out I thought they were going to release "First Time" second and "Never Say Never" third. "Borrowed Time" is my favorite song on that Album (along with "Love in the Midnight"), but I didn't think they were going to release it to the pop charts. It belonged on Rock Stations I thought.

[Boomchild]

If that is true (that DDY didn't want Po8 released as a single), I am amazed at the amount of control these guys had in determining the singles or not releasing singles (think also First Time and HWbHB). If I am the record company I tell them to go to hell and we'll release what we want to thank you

It's got nothing to do with the amount of control the band members did or didn't have when it comes to what is picked for a single. Just simply, if Dennis didn't think or feel his contributions were up to his usual standards then he's not going to be "campaigning" for the songs to be chosen for a single.

[Boomchild]

Regardless of what Dennis' actual thoughts were on PO8, whether he thought his contributions were not up to par or if he was unhappy that he didn't write a hit, either way I think he is being too hard on himself. I personally love his contributions to the album.

I agree. I think at times he is too hard on himself. He once stated that being an artist makes one feel that you are trying to please someone that can't be pleased.

[Boomchild]

in the case of first time I think that boils down to the threat of tommy quitting the band that brought that about.....i think everyone saw $$$$ signs in their eyes with first time being released (everyone being DDY and the record company) and it took the massive threat of losing a key member to acquire the power to have the release stopped.

I think real picture here is that the record company was pushing for FT as the next single and saw $$ based on the success of Babe and Dennis didn't have a problem with the song.

[Boomchild]

Yeah, I have no idea how those decisions were made regarding single releases. They could have edited out the middle part of PO8 just like they did with CSA for the pop charts. I actually think the middle parts of both those songs are the coolest parts! But they don't usually fly on pop radio because they make the songs too long.
Styx had quite a few missed chances with non-released singles. "First Time" would have been a top 10, no doubt. I also think "Haven't We Been Here Before" would have gone top 10. I always thought "Never Say Never" and even "Lights" had possibilities to be hits. Cornerstone could have been massive. When it first came out I thought they were going to release "First Time" second and "Never Say Never" third. "Borrowed Time" is my favorite song on that Album (along with "Love in the Midnight"), but I didn't think they were going to release it to the pop charts. It belonged on Rock Stations I thought.

The turmoil in the band had a lot to do with the missed chances with CS.

[Toph]

in the case of first time I think that boils down to the threat of tommy quitting the band that brought that about.....i think everyone saw $$$$ signs in their eyes with first time being released (everyone being DDY and the record company) and it took the massive threat of losing a key member to acquire the power to have the release stopped.

I think real picture here is that the record company was pushing for FT as the next single and saw $$ based on the success of Babe and Dennis didn't have a problem with the song.

First Time was already getting heavy airplay in some major markets as an unreleased single. A&M was going to capitalize on the demand that was already established. Instead when Shaw threatened to walk, they pulled it and replaced it with Why Me, which was a major disappointment coming on th heals of a #1 single.

[Cassie May]

It always amazes me how people have such differing tastes. First Time may or may not have been a Top 10 single, we'll never know, and I'm sure a lot of teen-aged girls would have swooned to that song had it been released, but I was a teen-aged girl when Cornerstone came out and I remember cringing in embarrassment the first time I heard it on my turntable. Oh my God it was so sappy! I just couldn't stand it. I listened to it once and skipped it every time I played the album after that initial listen. I also remember being somewhat disappointed with Cornerstone, especially when comparing it to Grand Illusion and Po8. It just didn't sound like the same band! Keep in mind, too, that we were unaware of the turmoil in the band at the time. It was kept quiet. I have on cassette several interviews that were done for radio at the time and you'd never know there were any hard feelings among the guys, or even that DDY had been fired, for that matter.

[Boomchild]

First Time was already getting heavy airplay in some major markets as an unreleased single. A&M was going to capitalize on the demand that was already established. Instead when Shaw threatened to walk, they pulled it and replaced it with Why Me, which was a major disappointment coming on th heals of a #1 single.

Even though FT not being released as a single may have been a missed opportunity, it was better that it wasn't for the sake of keeping the band intact. Which would be more important, another hit single or keeping the band together?

[Boomchild]

It always amazes me how people have such differing tastes. First Time may or may not have been a Top 10 single, we'll never know, and I'm sure a lot of teen-aged girls would have swooned to that song had it been released, but I was a teen-aged girl when Cornerstone came out and I remember cringing in embarrassment the first time I heard it on my turntable. Oh my God it was so sappy! I just couldn't stand it. I listened to it once and skipped it every time I played the album after that initial listen. I also remember being somewhat disappointed with Cornerstone, especially when comparing it to Grand Illusion and Po8. It just didn't sound like the same band! Keep in mind, too, that we were unaware of the turmoil in the band at the time. It was kept quiet. I have on cassette several interviews that were done for radio at the time and you'd never know there were any hard feelings among the guys, or even that DDY had been fired, for that matter.

Kind of the same way I felt about She Cares. When Tommy made the Barry Manilow comment when speaking about FT in Behind the Music, they should have started playing She Cares.

[pinkfloyd1973]

It always amazes me how people have such differing tastes. First Time may or may not have been a Top 10 single, we'll never know, and I'm sure a lot of teen-aged girls would have swooned to that song had it been released, but I was a teen-aged girl when Cornerstone came out and I remember cringing in embarrassment the first time I heard it on my turntable. Oh my God it was so sappy! I just couldn't stand it. I listened to it once and skipped it every time I played the album after that initial listen. I also remember being somewhat disappointed with Cornerstone, especially when comparing it to Grand Illusion and Po8. It just didn't sound like the same band! Keep in mind, too, that we were unaware of the turmoil in the band at the time. It was kept quiet. I have on cassette several interviews that were done for radio at the time and you'd never know there were any hard feelings among the guys, or even that DDY had been fired, for that matter.

Kind of the same way I felt about She Cares. When Tommy made the Barry Manilow comment when speaking about FT in Behind the Music, they should have started playing She Cares.

True that....

[gr8dane]

It always amazes me how people have such differing tastes. First Time may or may not have been a Top 10 single, we'll never know, and I'm sure a lot of teen-aged girls would have swooned to that song had it been released, but I was a teen-aged girl when Cornerstone came out and I remember cringing in embarrassment the first time I heard it on my turntable. Oh my God it was so sappy! I just couldn't stand it. I listened to it once and skipped it every time I played the album after that initial listen. I also remember being somewhat disappointed with Cornerstone, especially when comparing it to Grand Illusion and Po8. It just didn't sound like the same band! Keep in mind, too, that we were unaware of the turmoil in the band at the time. It was kept quiet. I have on cassette several interviews that were done for radio at the time and you'd never know there were any hard feelings among the guys, or even that DDY had been fired, for that matter.

Kind of the same way I felt about She Cares. When Tommy made the Barry Manilow comment when speaking about FT in Behind the Music, they should have started playing She Cares.

But at least Dennis looked the part.

[Cassie May]

Kind of the same way I felt about She Cares. When Tommy made the Barry Manilow comment when speaking about FT in Behind the Music, they should have started playing She Cares.

Yeah, I was never wild about She Cares, too. Although, it didn't make me cringe the way First Time did. Yuck!!

[yogi]

Still she treats me like a human.............................
One of the worst lines EVER!!

She Cares elevates First Time to Stairway To Heaven/Free Bird/ Dream On status.

[Toph]

Still she treats me like a human.............................
One of the worst lines EVER!!

She Cares elevates First Time to Stairway To Heaven/Free Bird/ Dream On status.

Tommy said he was suffering from writers block then. This kind of proves it. Sounds like something I would expect to hear at Disney. Especially the "like a human" and "that she'll be there" echoes. GAY.

[gr8dane]

She Cares elevates First Time to Stairway To Heaven/Free Bird/ Dream On status.

You are too modest Yogi.

[birdynumnum]

I remember when PO8 was released and while it was a good album, I remember initially being somewhat disappointed with it compared to GI. The one thing about PO8 was that Styx was moving in a more commercial direction with BCM and Renegade. I know that sounds bizarre given that these are rocker songs, but this was 1978 and Led Zep, Pink Floyd, the Stones etc were still the kings. Rock music had very strict protocols and being considered a sell out was the worst thing you could do. Up to GI Styx was considered an art rock band, mentioned (at least where I was from) in the same breath as Yes, Genesis, Floyd etc. In a top 100 albums of all time chart on the local rock station GI was number 8! After PO8 was when Styx began to be compared to REO, Foreigner, Journey etc, all those pop rock bands. While I didn't mind those bands, I hated the comparison. I always thought Styx was so much more than that. When PO8 was released, that was the first time when people in my rock crowd started to say that "Styx sucks" to me. I had no idea what was coming around the bend with Cornerstone!!

[Boomchild]

Still she treats me like a human.............................
One of the worst lines EVER!!

She Cares elevates First Time to Stairway To Heaven/Free Bird/ Dream On status.

Tommy said he was suffering from writers block then. This kind of proves it. Sounds like something I would expect to hear at Disney. Especially the "like a human" and "that she'll be there" echoes. GAY.

Even taking into account the freshman type lyrics, one wonders why he would even write and submit a song such this. After all, this is coming right off the heels of him threatening to quit over Styx becoming a pop\ballad band. It doesn't compute at all. Please don't infer the "drugs" made him do it. Maybe it was the success of Babe that inspired him to do it. Maybe he was looking for that ballad hit single.

[Everett]

Still she treats me like a human.............................
One of the worst lines EVER!!

She Cares elevates First Time to Stairway To Heaven/Free Bird/ Dream On status.

Tommy said he was suffering from writers block then. This kind of proves it. Sounds like something I would expect to hear at Disney. Especially the "like a human" and "that she'll be there" echoes. GAY.

Even taking into account the freshman type lyrics, one wonders why he would even write and submit a song such this. After all, this is coming right off the heels of him threatening to quit over Styx becoming a pop\ballad band. It doesn't compute at all. Please don't infer the "drugs" made him do it. Maybe it was the success of Babe that inspired him to do it. Maybe he was looking for that ballad hit single.

But the drugs DID make him do it

IDK though maybe he was just trying out different musical styles at that time
in his life.

[Cassie May]

I have a couple interviews on cassette that the band did for PT at the time. I'll have to get them out and listen again, see if there is any insight on She Cares. I thought it was pretty weak, too. I do know that Little Girl World was supposed to be used in a movie, but wasn't, and Lonely School originally had different lyrics inspired by a book on a man who killed his family (the title escapes me now, but it was a famous case). Tommy thought the lyrics were too dark for the music, so he rewrote the lyrics.

[masque]

she cares and babe/first time are totally different kinds of songs. babe and first time are pure sap ballads with little to no guitar (other than solos mostly added as a bone thrown to the guitars).....whereas she cares is more of a mid tempo/up tempo guitar oriented rock ballad.

to me first time is pure sap...really good pure sap but sap.....but she cares is just mostly a weak soft rock song.....i much prefer soft mid tempo rock over pure sap.

[Boomchild]

she cares and babe/first time are totally different kinds of songs. babe and first time are pure sap ballads with little to no guitar (other than solos mostly added as a bone thrown to the guitars).....whereas she cares is more of a mid tempo/up tempo guitar oriented rock ballad.

to me first time is pure sap...really good pure sap but sap.....but she cares is just mostly a weak soft rock song.....i much prefer soft mid tempo rock over pure sap.

Boy, your sure grasping at straws here. The lyrics are pure sap. I'm surprised it didn't gum up the stylus on my turntable at the time.

[Toph]

she cares and babe/first time are totally different kinds of songs. babe and first time are pure sap ballads with little to no guitar (other than solos mostly added as a bone thrown to the guitars).....whereas she cares is more of a mid tempo/up tempo guitar oriented rock ballad.

to me first time is pure sap...really good pure sap but sap.....but she cares is just mostly a weak soft rock song.....i much prefer soft mid tempo rock over pure sap.

Boy, your sure grasping at straws here. The lyrics are pure sap. I'm surprised it didn't gum up the stylus on my turntable at the time.

It's hypocrisy at its best with these Tommylovers!

Babe and First Time are what they are - ballads that were popular at the time or spawned similar types of ballads (see open arms, waiting for a girl like you, etc.).

She Cares is a roller coaster ride into the dark depths of syrupy sweetness not seen since the likes of Shaun Cassidy.

[Everett]

It's funny how threads here start talking about one thing then someone starts talking about
something else and we get an assembly line about that.

And poor tommy only got three happy b day wishes before it went to hell
(btw boomer yes i did count your wish even though i got the sarcasm )

[masque]

toph you and boomchild are both high......i said that first time "was very good sap"....to me it's not a dennis vs. tommy thing. but to my ears I think all three songs are not what I prefer to hear.

forgetting my preferences I would rank them as #1 first time, #2 babe and #3 she cares as far "how good of a song is this?" category......first time and babe are better songs, but they contain less of what turns me on as a listener so as a result I find myself actually more able to listen to she cares and I actually prefer to hear it more than the others.

it's not a "i hate dennis" thing or "i got to drink tommy's bathwather" think that you guys turn every damn discussion into.

it's just a common sense thing to be able to point out that she cares is, at it's core, a different kind of song than the other two.....which you prefer is your choice. which i prefer is mine.

obviously, the majority of folks that come onto this board like styx or they wouldnt be here.....and ironically enough, if you like or liked styx then there was a pretty decent chance that you had to like dennis and tommy and somewhat even jy since they all sung and all wrote to varying degrees during their heyday. even though we all liked "styx" we liked different things about them.

for me, I would 10 million times rather hear great white hope than babe, first time, she cares or tons of other styx songs....many folks would disagree.....i think great white hope, put me on and miss america are all better than babe and first time.....because that's the type of music i prefer......do i think jy is a better singer than dennis? of course not....is he a better overall writer? of course not......but i will also tell you that I ten thousand times prefer the side of dennis that gave me castle walls, grand illusion, come sail away, born for adventure, lonely people and parts of rockin the paradise/borrowed time/mademoiselle/snowblind and lights than I do the part of dennis that game me babe, first time and dont let it end.

did styx have to rock out for me to like them? nope, I love crystal ball (although the chorus is pure rock), best of times, come sail away (although the chorus is pure rock), boat on the river, lights etc.... etc.... etc.....but the part of them i prefer the most was the more rock and prog sides of the band. i also prefer guitars over keyboards.....so because of those things it cause me leanings to sway that way. that's it. peace out.