No RTP - Blame Tommy Shaw

[Toph]

From Dennis's Facebook posting...

"The songs chosen had to fit a 52 minute format so the decisions are always tough. The DVD has 16 songs so everything is there except Rockin the Paradise for which synch rights could not be obtained, but it rocks the cd with the great guitar duel of 1886."

RTP is the only song co-written by Tommy Shaw. Lorelei is co-written by JY. It is on the DVD. RTP is not. Evidently Tommy Shaw refused to give up the rights to it for the DVD. Asshole.

[Boomchild]

For me based on this information alone, DDY is not crystal clear as to why they could not be obtained. Also, since other TS songs like Renegade are on the DVD release, that doesn't seem to support that it was TS blocking use of RTP. If it was because TS refused to allow it, then that does seem like a shitty thing to do. It's my understanding that when it came to the current Styx's GI\PO8 DVD release, DDY did not stand in their way. So if that is what has happened here, then next time the current Styx wants something like that, maybe DDY won't be so agreeable.

[Hollywood]

From Dennis's Facebook posting...

"The songs chosen had to fit a 52 minute format so the decisions are always tough. The DVD has 16 songs so everything is there except Rockin the Paradise for which synch rights could not be obtained, but it rocks the cd with the great guitar duel of 1886."

RTP is the only song co-written by Tommy Shaw. Lorelei is co-written by JY. It is on the DVD. RTP is not. Evidently Tommy Shaw refused to give up the rights to it for the DVD. Asshole.

Why would Tommy give the rights for others to sing the 4 songs he sang, yet not sign the rights over for RTP? Doesn't make sense. Plus, he needs the sync rights signed for projects he works on so why upset the apple cart? Plus, DDY left this off his first DVD PBS special. Maybe the rights are owned by someone outside the band and they will not give permission.

[Monker]

For me based on this information alone, DDY is not crystal clear as to why they could not be obtained. Also, since other TS songs like Renegade are on the DVD release, that doesn't seem to support that it was TS blocking use of RTP. If it was because TS refused to allow it, then that does seem like a shitty thing to do. It's my understanding that when it came to the current Styx's GI\PO8 DVD release, DDY did not stand in their way. So if that is what has happened here, then next time the current Styx wants something like that, maybe DDY won't be so agreeable.

I agree...if Tommy were being an ass, he would stop Renegade and BCM...because those are songs he is identified by.

I would expect an agreement was made for the Po8 DVD and to allow Dennis to use certain songs for a future release. Maybe, if that was true, he did not include RTP in that agreement.

The simple truth is, none of us know...and it is pretty stupid to start laying blame.

[Boomchild]

I agree...if Tommy were being an ass, he would stop Renegade and BCM...because those are songs he is identified by.

I would expect an agreement was made for the Po8 DVD and to allow Dennis to use certain songs for a future release. Maybe, if that was true, he did not include RTP in that agreement.

The simple truth is, none of us know...and it is pretty stupid to start laying blame.

If it was something that song specific, I can't see DDY leaving out RTP while including the others mentioned. Especially since he has been performing that song ever since he went solo. I wonder if there is something unique to the copyright of RTP that is different from the other songs. It could also certainly just be that they were unable to obtain the rights by the time they needed to start production of the DVD and AXS broadcast version.

[Toph]

OK, we don't necessarily know that Tommy is to blame, but the song Lorelei was co-written with JY, he got the rights to that one. The only other song that is co-written is RTP (I still have no idea what Tommy brought to that song anyway to get writing credit - the opening guitar lick?). Assuming it takes agreement among all 3 songwriters for that one? So, who or what is the hold up? Sounds to me since the other co-written song (Lorelei) was agreed to and that was JY, that he is open to doing this. When you add the third person, Tommy, is where the rights were not obtained. Legitimate question to ask.

[Boomchild]

OK, we don't necessarily know that Tommy is to blame, but the song Lorelei was co-written with JY, he got the rights to that one. The only other song that is co-written is RTP (I still have no idea what Tommy brought to that song anyway to get writing credit - the opening guitar lick?). Assuming it takes agreement among all 3 songwriters for that one? So, who or what is the hold up? Sounds to me since the other co-written song (Lorelei) was agreed to and that was JY, that he is open to doing this. When you add the third person, Tommy, is where the rights were not obtained. Legitimate question to ask.

If Tommy's other songs which I assume he holds the rights too were not on the DVD then I would say that you could suspect that it was Tommy blocking the sync rights. Since Tommy's other songs are on the DVD I would say that the issue was not him. It must be something else. Jumping the gun to finger Tommy just seems to be not thinking about the issue clearly.

[yogi]

It's George Bush's fault.

[Hollywood]

OK, we don't necessarily know that Tommy is to blame, but the song Lorelei was co-written with JY, he got the rights to that one. The only other song that is co-written is RTP (I still have no idea what Tommy brought to that song anyway to get writing credit - the opening guitar lick?). Assuming it takes agreement among all 3 songwriters for that one? So, who or what is the hold up? Sounds to me since the other co-written song (Lorelei) was agreed to and that was JY, that he is open to doing this. When you add the third person, Tommy, is where the rights were not obtained. Legitimate question to ask.

I think it is legitimate to ask why the rights could not be obtained. You however made an accusation which is not okay or legitimate. If Tommy were to blame his 4 other songs would not be on the DVD or the AXS broadcast. As stated, Dennis left it off his first DVD as well even though he performed the song at almost every show. This was a long time ago and Dennis would hold this against Tommy if he did that. Yet Dennis has given permission for the CYO and GI/POE since then. Clearly the evidence points away from Tommy.

[Toph]

For me based on this information alone, DDY is not crystal clear as to why they could not be obtained. Also, since other TS songs like Renegade are on the DVD release, that doesn't seem to support that it was TS blocking use of RTP. If it was because TS refused to allow it, then that does seem like a shitty thing to do. It's my understanding that when it came to the current Styx's GI\PO8 DVD release, DDY did not stand in their way. So if that is what has happened here, then next time the current Styx wants something like that, maybe DDY won't be so agreeable.

I agree...if Tommy were being an ass, he would stop Renegade and BCM...because those are songs he is identified by.

I would expect an agreement was made for the Po8 DVD and to allow Dennis to use certain songs for a future release. Maybe, if that was true, he did not include RTP in that agreement.

The simple truth is, none of us know...and it is pretty stupid to start laying blame.

Ok, I probably jumped the gun pointing specifically to Tommy. It could very much be JY...Let's play out your theory. Styx came to DDY for permission to use the songs in Arch Allies and Youth Symphony songs and I am assuming that the agreement was mutual for the tracks that were laid out in that agreement (which must have been the songs on Arch Allies/Symphony CDs). In other words, they agreed to mutually sign over those tracks to the other. So, DDY could use Renegade and Styx could use Grand Illusion/CSA etc. for DVD purposes. Since Styx without DDY rarely played RTP (until recently) that song was absent from the original agreement. Therefore, DDY needed to go back to the existing Styx members to get permission to use Rockin The Paradise. Someone - either Tommy or JY told him "no." That has to be the case as I don't see anyone else owning rights to that particular song. If so, then that was an assholish thing to do. The songs on the original agreement DDY could use (as I assume it went both ways), but since RTP wasn't on the original agreement and technically had JY/Tommy as cowriters (again, I have no idea what they wrote on that song as I always assumed it was all DDY), then DDY must have had to go back to the well and get their permission for sync rights to that specific song. They said no. Its originally published under Stygian Songs so it goes to Tommy and JY. Too bad they couldn't have been cooler about it. But with those two, I expect nothing less.

[yogi]

The Bush family had a 52% ownership in the original Paradise Theater.

George Sr's father had a 52% ownership in 1928 when the theater opened in Chicago. George Sr( first President Bush)inherited the Paradise Theater(52%ownership) and was there for its closing in 1958. See picture www.bushweeps@paradise.com

George Jr. now has the rights to everything Paradise Theater. It was he who refused to give DDY the rights to record RTP for DDY's most recent release.

You can read it here at: http://www.georgebushclosestheparadiset ... sanews.com

[Hollywood]

For me based on this information alone, DDY is not crystal clear as to why they could not be obtained. Also, since other TS songs like Renegade are on the DVD release, that doesn't seem to support that it was TS blocking use of RTP. If it was because TS refused to allow it, then that does seem like a shitty thing to do. It's my understanding that when it came to the current Styx's GI\PO8 DVD release, DDY did not stand in their way. So if that is what has happened here, then next time the current Styx wants something like that, maybe DDY won't be so agreeable.

I agree...if Tommy were being an ass, he would stop Renegade and BCM...because those are songs he is identified by.

I would expect an agreement was made for the Po8 DVD and to allow Dennis to use certain songs for a future release. Maybe, if that was true, he did not include RTP in that agreement.

The simple truth is, none of us know...and it is pretty stupid to start laying blame.

Ok, I probably jumped the gun pointing specifically to Tommy. It could very much be JY...Let's play out your theory. Styx came to DDY for permission to use the songs in Arch Allies and Youth Symphony songs and I am assuming that the agreement was mutual for the tracks that were laid out in that agreement (which must have been the songs on Arch Allies/Symphony CDs). In other words, they agreed to mutually sign over those tracks to the other. So, DDY could use Renegade and Styx could use Grand Illusion/CSA etc. for DVD purposes. Since Styx without DDY rarely played RTP (until recently) that song was absent from the original agreement. Therefore, DDY needed to go back to the existing Styx members to get permission to use Rockin The Paradise. Someone - either Tommy or JY told him "no." That has to be the case as I don't see anyone else owning rights to that particular song. If so, then that was an assholish thing to do. The songs on the original agreement DDY could use (as I assume it went both ways), but since RTP wasn't on the original agreement and technically had JY/Tommy as cowriters (again, I have no idea what they wrote on that song as I always assumed it was all DDY), then DDY must have had to go back to the well and get their permission for sync rights to that specific song. They said no. Its originally published under Stygian Songs so it goes to Tommy and JY. Too bad they couldn't have been cooler about it. But with those two, I expect nothing less.

This argument also does not hold up against the evidence. You must get sync rights for each individual project. In this case Frontiers would have to get the rights to put that on the DVD. Previous agreements between would not be acceptable.

Secondly, if you have 1 second of a song on a video or DVD you must obtain the sync rights. Styx put RTP on the CYO DVD as part of the Medley therefore they would have needed the sync rights.

[Boomchild]

This argument also does not hold up against the evidence. You must get sync rights for each individual project. In this case Frontiers would have to get the rights to put that on the DVD. Previous agreements between would not be acceptable.

Secondly, if you have 1 second of a song on a video or DVD you must obtain the sync rights. Styx put RTP on the CYO DVD as part of the Medley therefore they would have needed the sync rights.

Well the situation is interesting and bizarre at the same time. I will say this though, if it turns out that TS\JY did have something to do with it, DDY did show class in not airing dirty laundry or mud slinging when explaining why this song was not included on the DVD and AXS program.

[Monker]

What you posted is NOT my "theory". I am NOT talking about CYO or Arch Allies, or whatever other live album.

I was talking about the GI/POE concert DVD.

BTW, if you think it is an asshole move to not allow RTP on a Dennis DVD...then it is absolutely an asshole move for Dennis to not allow "Come Sail Away" on the CYO project, especially since that is Styx' signature song.

First of all, I think you are living in a fantasy if you think the individual members of the band were very involved in this. They probably all discussed it with their attorneys and the attorneys discussed it with each other.

I am saying that when Styx decided to record the GI/PO8 DVD, they *KNEW* they would need to get Dennis sign off on such a project to release the full concert. The fact is, this forum refused to believe it would ever be released because there was no way Dennis would give his permission. So, I think they made a deal....Dennis allowed them to record the live version of GI/PO8, and Styx would allow Dennis to record certain songs for a future project.

So, a deal was made. Why wasn't RTP part of that deal? Who knows? My thought is that Dennis was most interested in the few Tommy led songs and being able to record those...and maybe RTP was lost in the cracks...and attorney talks.

In the end, it doesn't really matter. You should be happy enough to even get a DVD. Nitpicking and wanting to pass blame for minor critiques is ridiculous. It is more telling about your angst towards Tommy and JY than how the band members feel towards each other.

And, if somebody does have to be blamed, it's not George Bush. It's Steve Perry. It's always Perry's fault. Everything is Perry's fault.

For me based on this information alone, DDY is not crystal clear as to why they could not be obtained. Also, since other TS songs like Renegade are on the DVD release, that doesn't seem to support that it was TS blocking use of RTP. If it was because TS refused to allow it, then that does seem like a shitty thing to do. It's my understanding that when it came to the current Styx's GI\PO8 DVD release, DDY did not stand in their way. So if that is what has happened here, then next time the current Styx wants something like that, maybe DDY won't be so agreeable.

I agree...if Tommy were being an ass, he would stop Renegade and BCM...because those are songs he is identified by.

I would expect an agreement was made for the Po8 DVD and to allow Dennis to use certain songs for a future release. Maybe, if that was true, he did not include RTP in that agreement.

The simple truth is, none of us know...and it is pretty stupid to start laying blame.

Ok, I probably jumped the gun pointing specifically to Tommy. It could very much be JY...Let's play out your theory. Styx came to DDY for permission to use the songs in Arch Allies and Youth Symphony songs and I am assuming that the agreement was mutual for the tracks that were laid out in that agreement (which must have been the songs on Arch Allies/Symphony CDs). In other words, they agreed to mutually sign over those tracks to the other. So, DDY could use Renegade and Styx could use Grand Illusion/CSA etc. for DVD purposes. Since Styx without DDY rarely played RTP (until recently) that song was absent from the original agreement. Therefore, DDY needed to go back to the existing Styx members to get permission to use Rockin The Paradise. Someone - either Tommy or JY told him "no." That has to be the case as I don't see anyone else owning rights to that particular song. If so, then that was an assholish thing to do. The songs on the original agreement DDY could use (as I assume it went both ways), but since RTP wasn't on the original agreement and technically had JY/Tommy as cowriters (again, I have no idea what they wrote on that song as I always assumed it was all DDY), then DDY must have had to go back to the well and get their permission for sync rights to that specific song. They said no. Its originally published under Stygian Songs so it goes to Tommy and JY. Too bad they couldn't have been cooler about it. But with those two, I expect nothing less.

[yogi]

Why not ask Dennis or someone close to him. Until then blame Bush!!

[Boomchild]

Was thinking a little more on this subject. I think you could also consider that DDY and TS\JY could not come to an agreement for the use of the song. Meaning they didn't actually block the use but rather wanted something DDY wasn't willing to give.

[masque]

Was thinking a little more on this subject. I think you could also consider that DDY and TS\JY could not come to an agreement for the use of the song. Meaning they didn't actually block the use but rather wanted something DDY wasn't willing to give.

i think this is probably the most likely explanation of the situation.......since all we are doing is speculative at best.......boom's makes the most sense.

if i were tommy or jy and i actually had a grudge against the guy i would allow any of my songs to appear......since songs they both of them either helped or write or they wrote alone appear there had to be some kind of disagreement concerning the split of the pie with this song for this release.

[yogi]

Why do you think that Styx has never performed or recorded live 'Just Fell In' ? Dennis wanted far too much of the pie on that gem.

With RTP its all about the Bush family and DDY probably having to pay them off along with Tommy & JY. By the time everyone gets their$$$ Dennis probably wouldn't make enough coin to purchase a bottle of GermX.

[FormerDJMike]

I have to say this version of Rockin The Paradise is my favorite live version yet. They brought the piano back and added a huge guitar solo at the end. It's a great version!

[Boomchild]

Why do you think that Styx has never performed or recorded live 'Just Fell In' ? Dennis wanted far too much of the pie on that gem.

With RTP its all about the Bush family and DDY probably having to pay them off along with Tommy & JY. By the time everyone gets their$$$ Dennis probably wouldn't make enough coin to purchase a bottle of GermX.

And here I was thinking he was an Ensure drinker.

[brywool]

It wasn't Shaw or JY. It was the Publisher. Dennis explained that in his latest interview.

[Boomchild]

It wasn't Shaw or JY. It was the Publisher. Dennis explained that in his latest interview.

Which latest interview? He's done a few recently.

[brywool]

http://www.classicrockrevisited.com/sho ... hp?id=1075

[yogi]

Dennis is sad that he chickened out of doing Born For Adventure, hell I'm currently crying because he didn't do it. I can't believe that my ALL time favorite Styx song from my ALL time favorite Styx album could of been on this collection and Dennis chickened out.

That's NOT good enough for this Styx fan. Grow a pair and please rerelease this collection with Born For Adventure on it.

Shi t, if you would also add Rubicon and Goodbye To Roseland I swear I will buy 100 copies and give them away as presents.

By the way GREAT article and interview. Dennis is a bad ass!!!

[ztyxlynne]

I agree. I wish Born for Adventure was on here. At least as a bonus track. Along with 100 years and maybe Private Jones.

[Boomchild]

I was bummed when I read that too. I was hoping to have that on the set list as well. It appears that DDY is kicking himself a little bit about it as well. Maybe he can make it up by adding it as a bonus track to a new album if he decides to do one.

[brywool]

Wish that he'd done "Save Me". Man, that's a brilliant f'ing song.