Merchandising Merchandising!!

[gr8dane]

Facts: The building of the Styx brand. Clearly, the bulk of the brand was formed by DDY no matter which way you choose to look at it. It isn't even close.

Breakthrough Single - Lady written and sung by DDY

Studio Albums appearing on - 1972-1991 (the formation of the Styx brand): DDY 12, JY 12, TS 6

Top 10 Singles Song Credits: DDY 7, TS 1, JY 0

Styx Greatest Hits Song Credits: DDY 10, TS 5, JY 1

Uncredited Production Leadership A&M albums: DDY 8, JY 0, TS 0

Total # of Lead Vocals (A&M albums): DDY 35 1/2, TS 20, JY 10, GB 4, JC 1/2

This is the same bullshit argument that Perry fans make, pointing to writing credits and who is named first, and all kinds of other crap, trying to prove that he had more influence in the band than anybody else. You blow your own argument when you list "uncredited production leadership". In a band situation like Styx many, many things are uncredited. Influences happen that nobody knows about outside of the band.

You are a bullshitter and a liar when you come on here making these fantastical claims, as if typing up an emphatic list of crap makes your lies more true...it doesn't.

"Branding" shouldn't even be a member's job, but that of the manager. It's also not writing credits or who sang how many songs. You are so ridiculous, it's pathetic.

I doubt you have the ability to stop being this defender of all things Dennis and just talk about Styx as a band. To you, talking about Styx is really talking about Dennis, because you have this illusion that they are the same thing.

Don't forget the fact: If Styx had released First Time,Dennis would have had another #1 single.

[Boomchild]

This is absolutely NOT TRUE. For his live orchestra album, he toured and he went on PBS to sell it. He pushed that thing for a couple years. He toured for OHYFN, and played some of the songs from it. Even for Desert Moon there was promotion, a video, etc. Hell, Tommy joined DY because Dennis was too busy filming a video to promote Boomchild.

Were talking about his solo material prior to him being booted from Styx in '99. In interviews about that period of time, DDY has clearly stated that he was not looking to develop a full blown solo career. Because he he really wanted for Styx to continue with TS and had hoped that TS would return to the fold. In FACT, he has explained further that at the time of TS' departure, the others were pushing for finding a replacement for TS and continuing on. DDY wouldn't agree to it. When speaking about that time period, DDY did ZERO in terms of touring to support those albums. Let's be realistic here, if you are not going to tour to support a new solo career those releases are going to do poorly. That is why in most cases record companies pressure artists to tour in support of album releases. By all accounts, the effort to support those albums was minimal. If you are going to use Boomchild as a example, you can't just use a sound bite that fits your theory. You have to look at the FULL picture of the actual event. TS contacted DDY out of the blue and expressed interest in regrouping with Styx. DDY did not have any prior notice that was going to happen. Up and till that point, they were not in touch with each other. DDY clearly pointed out MCA had put up a lot of money up for the video you speak of and DDY felt it was not right to simply bail on that project and leave MCA holding the bag. If he did, most likely he would have been sued. DDY went further to explain that MCA would have not been happy if he would be working on a Styx project (on a competing label) that would have been released in the same time period. Post '99 is a different story because at that point he knew he was going to be part of Styx anymore.

The long and short of this whole subject is that DDY did not put a lot of effort into a "solo career" during the time we are actually talking about. He did not have an actual band put together. He was using studio musicians. It was only after his ousting from Styx in '99 that he put together an actual backing band and put forth a proper solo career.

[Boomchild]

This is the same bullshit argument that Perry fans make, pointing to writing credits and who is named first, and all kinds of other crap, trying to prove that he had more influence in the band than anybody else. You blow your own argument when you list "uncredited production leadership". In a band situation like Styx many, many things are uncredited. Influences happen that nobody knows about outside of the band.

On this subject we all know that DDY has indicated that he was the most involved with final production of Styx' albums. If there was not truth to such a statement, I would think that the others would have refuted such a claim. To the best of my knowledge they have never done so.

[Toph]

You and monkey boy show your ignorance with statements like this. Its the Styx brand. And who built the Styx brand? Primarily Dennis with some help from Tommy and virtually none from JY.

Well then, if that's the case, you also need to inform Dennis that he is ignorant as well. After all, he is the one that has never wavered from his statement that "the success of Styx was due to the contributions and influences of all the members". So are we supposed to believe you or the guy that actually was involved? Be sure to make a post on DDY's Facebook page informing him he is ignorant and his statement is full of shit.

Seriously, you need to stop living in the past and live in the present. No amount of back and forth rehashing with speculations and opinions is going to change history. The reality is that they reached and impasse with each other and could not keep it together. By the looks of things they have moved past those events and got on with their lives and careers. DDY seems very happy with what he has been able to achieve on his own and no longer has to compromise with anyone on the direction he wants to go in. Your unabashed loyalty to DDY has become sickening.

Sorry if you can't handle the truth Boomer. But the fact of the matter is that Dennis is the primary reason the Styx brand is so valuable. Period. You and your buddy Monkey can cry over it all you want, but facts are facts.

[Toph]

Facts: The building of the Styx brand. Clearly, the bulk of the brand was formed by DDY no matter which way you choose to look at it. It isn't even close.

Breakthrough Single - Lady written and sung by DDY

Studio Albums appearing on - 1972-1991 (the formation of the Styx brand): DDY 12, JY 12, TS 6

Top 10 Singles Song Credits: DDY 7, TS 1, JY 0

Styx Greatest Hits Song Credits: DDY 10, TS 5, JY 1

Uncredited Production Leadership A&M albums: DDY 8, JY 0, TS 0

Total # of Lead Vocals (A&M albums): DDY 35 1/2, TS 20, JY 10, GB 4, JC 1/2

This is the same bullshit argument that Perry fans make, pointing to writing credits and who is named first, and all kinds of other crap, trying to prove that he had more influence in the band than anybody else. You blow your own argument when you list "uncredited production leadership". In a band situation like Styx many, many things are uncredited. Influences happen that nobody knows about outside of the band.

You are a bullshitter and a liar when you come on here making these fantastical claims, as if typing up an emphatic list of crap makes your lies more true...it doesn't.

"Branding" shouldn't even be a member's job, but that of the manager. It's also not writing credits or who sang how many songs. You are so ridiculous, it's pathetic.

I doubt you have the ability to stop being this defender of all things Dennis and just talk about Styx as a band. To you, talking about Styx is really talking about Dennis, because you have this illusion that they are the same thing.

You note that you do not refute my point that Dennis primarily built the Styx brand that TS/JY are cashing in on now. You just try to deflect the situation by calling me a bullshitter/liar etc. Sound a lot like Trump there, Monkeyboy

[Toph]

Facts: The building of the Styx brand. Clearly, the bulk of the brand was formed by DDY no matter which way you choose to look at it. It isn't even close.

Breakthrough Single - Lady written and sung by DDY

Studio Albums appearing on - 1972-1991 (the formation of the Styx brand): DDY 12, JY 12, TS 6

Top 10 Singles Song Credits: DDY 7, TS 1, JY 0

Styx Greatest Hits Song Credits: DDY 10, TS 5, JY 1

Uncredited Production Leadership A&M albums: DDY 8, JY 0, TS 0

Total # of Lead Vocals (A&M albums): DDY 35 1/2, TS 20, JY 10, GB 4, JC 1/2

This is the same bullshit argument that Perry fans make, pointing to writing credits and who is named first, and all kinds of other crap, trying to prove that he had more influence in the band than anybody else. You blow your own argument when you list "uncredited production leadership". In a band situation like Styx many, many things are uncredited. Influences happen that nobody knows about outside of the band.

You are a bullshitter and a liar when you come on here making these fantastical claims, as if typing up an emphatic list of crap makes your lies more true...it doesn't.

"Branding" shouldn't even be a member's job, but that of the manager. It's also not writing credits or who sang how many songs. You are so ridiculous, it's pathetic.

I doubt you have the ability to stop being this defender of all things Dennis and just talk about Styx as a band. To you, talking about Styx is really talking about Dennis, because you have this illusion that they are the same thing.

Don't forget the fact: If Styx had released First Time,Dennis would have had another #1 single.

And if the band had released Renegade the way Tommy originally wanted to, his number of Styx hits would decrease to being able to count on one hand....

[Toph]

It does when someone is claiming that Dennis did almost all of the work and the rest of the band did nothing. If that is the case, then Styx is equivalent to a solo project, and vice versa. But, as we both know, they are not...therefore, stating that Dennis had so much influence is just not true.

And, as I said, the same goes with Steve Perry in Journey.

No it does not. DDY did very little to promote his solo material. He did zero touring to promote those albums. He himself had said that he wasn't interested in becoming a solo artist.

This is absolutely NOT TRUE. For his live orchestra album, he toured and he went on PBS to sell it. He pushed that thing for a couple years. He toured for OHYFN, and played some of the songs from it. Even for Desert Moon there was promotion, a video, etc. Hell, Tommy joined DY because Dennis was too busy filming a video to promote Boomchild.

The bottom line is his solo career never took off like Styx. If it had, we'd be having a different conversation. Saying in retrospect that he had no interest in being a solo act is bullshit. If he had no interest in it, then he would not have recorded the albums. His solo career didn't take off because it was mostly mediocre music on mediocre albums that had moderate success - at best. Exactly as every other member of Styx. Dennis was not "special" at all.

If he was this magic bullet , did 80% of all the work, and is THE reason Styx was successful, as Toph foolishly claims, then he should have been able to do the same with his solo career, then and now. It never happened. It didn't happen because he doesn't have the level of talent surrounding him that he did in Styx. It's one thing to write a great song but it's another thing to be able to take it to a band and together raise it to a higher level. You can say the same about Tommy and JY's songs and getting Dennis' input. That is how bands work...and he doesn't have that solo, at least not at the same level, as he did in Styx.

Wow, you really have no clue. So you think that promoting oneself as Dennis DeYoung is the same as promoting one as Styx? That he should have the same success with or without the Styx brand name behind him? You really aren't real bright are you? And you certainly have no understanding of marketing or branding. The fact that Desert Moon got as high as it did is a testament to the quality of the song because no one knew two shits about who Dennis DeYoung was. This wasn't a band that advertised or featured individual members. It was a "faceless corporate rock band" as has been alluded to many times. People knew Styx and didn't know DDY. I'm sure he could have pushed his own individualism more in Styx and become better known individually, but DDY acknowledges he was always a band guy - until they fired him. Furthermore, he states that Desert Moon likely would have gone to #1 had Styx released it vs. Dennis DeYoung. That is the power of the brand. Stating anything else just shows how ignorant you are.

[pinkfloyd1973]

Jesus Marian Hossa, I'm gone from the board for three months (not by choice) and Toph & Monker are still going at it?

1. Dennis does more than Rib fests...if Monker didn't live in Buttfuck Iowa, he would have known that
2. Toph's obsession with DDY borders on creepy
3. Hi Everett, Boom, and Suite

[Monker]

You note that you do not refute my point that Dennis primarily built the Styx brand that TS/JY are cashing in on now. You just try to deflect the situation by calling me a bullshitter/liar etc. Sound a lot like Trump there, Monkeyboy

You are a complete idiot. None of this stuff has to do with "branding". It's a MANAGERS job.

Herbie Herbert built the Journey brand in the late 80's through the 90's WITHOUT THE BAND EVEN EXISTING. He made Journey's back catalog one of the most profitable in the industry. It has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with who wrote what songs and how many were written and all of this crap you are talking about. It has to do with radio and airplay, and HOW albums are released, even the album artwork and live experience, etc. THAT is branding, what you are posting is complete BULLSHIT because all you know is your insane belief that Dennis IS Styx.

[Monker]

This is the same bullshit argument that Perry fans make, pointing to writing credits and who is named first, and all kinds of other crap, trying to prove that he had more influence in the band than anybody else. You blow your own argument when you list "uncredited production leadership". In a band situation like Styx many, many things are uncredited. Influences happen that nobody knows about outside of the band.

On this subject we all know that DDY has indicated that he was the most involved with final production of Styx' albums. If there was not truth to such a statement, I would think that the others would have refuted such a claim. To the best of my knowledge they have never done so.

And, if they commented on it, people like Toph would be saying they were liars. They are wise to not comment on any of this stuff and not even speak Dennis' name. In fact, their lawyers most likely gave them that advice.

In all likelihood, they ALL had a hand in the final production of Styx' albums...especially in how their pet songs sound. The bottom line is stuff like this is UNCREDITED for a reason - DDY was NOT paid as a producer. He may have an ego the size of a planet and demand changes....but he still was not the producer any more or less than Tommy or JY. In fact, I believe this is why Cyclorama has a blanket writing credit of the entire band.

None of this was my point to Toph. My point is the nature of working in a band lends itself to all kinds of uncredited influences. You are NOT going to convince me that PT or GI would have sounded the same if Dennis had fired TS and JY and replaced them during the writing and recording of those albums. Dennis had his influences, but so did they.

To diminish their involvement in the success of Styx and the sound of Styx in order to prop up Dennis is WRONG. When Dennis props himself up above the others (I produced all the albums, I am responsible for developing Styx harmonies and unique sound...) he is showing himself to be a narcissist, much worse than just a person with a large ego.

[Monker]

1. Dennis does more than Rib fests...if Monker didn't live in Buttfuck Iowa, he would have known that

I know that. But, HERE, in this city, the last concert he did was a rib fest, maybe 10yrs ago.

Since that same time, Styx has been here multiple times since then...even solo at various venues, along with their various tour packages. It's an almost yearly thing...and it's not performing free concerts at rib fests. That's my point.

If Dennis scheduled a night at the local casino, I'd go. What I said wasn't even meant as an insult towards Dennis. He just doesn't schedule concerts here.

[Monker]

Wow, you really have no clue. So you think that promoting oneself as Dennis DeYoung is the same as promoting one as Styx?

No. I think think that if you are correct and he was so responsible for the branding of Styx, he should be able to do the same for himself and his own brand. He has NOT been able to do it.

This wasn't a band that advertised or featured individual members. It was a "faceless corporate rock band" as has been alluded to many times.

This is a direct quote from a Rolling Stone article that pointed fingers at EVERY Melodic Rock band of the early 80's....not just Styx. Journey, REO, and Foreigner were included. I believe they said something about swapping drummer and nobody would ever know.

I find it pretty sad that you would give such an article so much credit and cite it as evidence that DDY was not known. You are essentially agreeing that he could replace Kevin Cronin in REO and nobody would know. THAT is what the Rolling Stone article that YOU are quoting was saying.

[Monker]

This is absolutely NOT TRUE. For his live orchestra album, he toured and he went on PBS to sell it. He pushed that thing for a couple years. He toured for OHYFN, and played some of the songs from it. Even for Desert Moon there was promotion, a video, etc. Hell, Tommy joined DY because Dennis was too busy filming a video to promote Boomchild.

Were talking about his solo material prior to him being booted from Styx in '99.

I'm not. I'm talking about his solo career from the day he was born until today. He did not brand himself as well as STyx was branded.

When speaking about that time period, DDY did ZERO in terms of touring to support those albums. Let's be realistic here, if you are not going to tour to support a new solo career those releases are going to do poorly.

WRONG. Touring does NOT sell albums. That is a perception that has been proven wrong repeatedly.

Examples:

The Beatles did not tour for their last few albums.
Steve Perry did not tour for "Street Talk" and it sold very well.
Huey Lewis, they talk about being on tour when their first videos came out and they started getting on the radioi...their venues were far too small so they had to cancel the last half of their tour and rebook it for larger venues.

Over and over and over again this has been proven.

RADIO and airplay sells albums...especially back in the 80's and early 90's.

If you are going to use Boomchild as a example, you can't just use a sound bite that fits your theory. You have to look at the FULL picture of the actual event.

I put that in as one small piece of a larger picture. His Live Orchestra album also did not do so well? He toured for that and did a lot of promotion for it himself.

TS contacted DDY out of the blue and expressed interest in regrouping with Styx. DDY did not have any prior notice that was going to happen. Up and till that point, they were not in touch with each other.

Not the full picture. DDY himself has admitted that TS called him multiple times asking to reform Styx. The last call TS told Dennis that he had the offer from Jack and Ted...and Dennis TOLD HIM TO DO IT. In fact, this was said by Dennis in an interview with Andrew.

Not my point anyway...the FACT is that Dennis DID promote Boomchild.

The long and short of this whole subject is that DDY did not put a lot of effort into a "solo career" during the time we are actually talking about. He did not have an actual band put together. He was using studio musicians. It was only after his ousting from Styx in '99 that he put together an actual backing band and put forth a proper solo career.

Steve Perry did EXACTLY THE SAME THING with "Street Talk"...and he didn't put together a true band until "For the Love of Strange Medicine" (which didn't sell as well, despite a tour). Gee, wonder why Perry was so much more successful with "Street Talk"....maybe because Herbie Herbert knows a lot more about BRANDING that Dennis (or Steve Perry).

[Boomchild]

I'm not. I'm talking about his solo career from the day he was born until today. He did not brand himself as well as STyx was branded.

Which is not the time period that I was talking about. I was focusing solely on '84 - '88. If Dennis had put the same amount of effort into that period of his solo work as he did in Styx then you could make a comparison. But other then making four videos he didn't do squat as far as promotion and performances in support of those releases. Then you have his own admission that he wasn't even trying to make a major effort as a solo artist.

WRONG. Touring does NOT sell albums. That is a perception that has been proven wrong repeatedly.

Bullshit. That's your perception. If not show me an actual industry study that supports your claim. It's a combination of radio air play and touring support. Even when CMC signed Styx for the BNW album it was in the contract that they were required to tour in support of the release. So if we were to believe your perception is gospel then there would have been no need for CMC to include that demand.

I put that in as one small piece of a larger picture. His Live Orchestra album also did not do so well? He toured for that and did a lot of promotion for it himself.

His Orchestra album has nothing to do it. Were talking about the events of when TS contacted DDY about regrouping Styx.

Not the full picture. DDY himself has admitted that TS called him multiple times asking to reform Styx. The last call TS told Dennis that he had the offer from Jack and Ted...and Dennis TOLD HIM TO DO IT. In fact, this was said by Dennis in an interview with Andrew.

Those calls all occurred during the time frame that DDY was working on the Boomchild project. There was a long delay in it moving forward because the company doing the video had held onto the material for months. Which was delaying the release of the album. It was unclear at that point on how long it was going to take to get the project moving again. DDY didn't tell TS to go with the DY project. He said that due the problems with the delays in the releasing of Boomchild he wasn't going to tell TS not to do the DY project. DDY had no objection to regrouping. It was the timing of it that just made it not possible. If I am not mistaken, DDY discusses this in detail in the lengthy interview he did with Artist House Music.

Not my point anyway...the FACT is that Dennis DID promote Boomchild.

Doing one music video is hardly promotion. He didn't do interviews. appearances or live performances to promote it. In fact I clearly remember not hearing or knowing anything about this album. I was surprised by it when I saw it in the music store.

Steve Perry did EXACTLY THE SAME THING with "Street Talk"...and he didn't put together a true band until "For the Love of Strange Medicine" (which didn't sell as well, despite a tour). Gee, wonder why Perry was so much more successful with "Street Talk"....maybe because Herbie Herbert knows a lot more about BRANDING that Dennis (or Steve Perry).

You can make all the comparisons you want to Steve Perry. All you are doing is deflecting form the most glaring FACT of this whole discussion. Which is DDY stated that he was not looking to put forth a full fledged solo career after the '84 break up. He wanted to give TS time in the hopes that he would change his mind return to the fold. So he was just filling his time with the hopes that things could be patched up with TS.

[Monker]

WRONG. Touring does NOT sell albums. That is a perception that has been proven wrong repeatedly.

Bullshit. That's your perception.

No, it's not. It's your misperception and not seeing the big picture of how albums become so successful, especially back then.

Just think for one moment. How many people does a band play for during a tour? When a song get airplay, it reaches MILLIONS of people IN ONE DAY. That one day may equate to the same number of people for AN ENTIRE TOUR...especially if a band is either just getting started, or are Jurassic Rockers. And, by "airplay", I don't mean just radio, but everything from MTV to background music at your grocery store. THAT is what sells albums.

It's a combination of radio air play and touring support.

Touring sells peanuts compared to airplay. THAT IS A FACT.

Even when CMC signed Styx for the BNW album it was in the contract that they were required to tour in support of the release.

It has already been posted in this forum by somebody else that smaller labels like CMC do not have the budget to do promoting and leave it up to the bands to do. So, yeah, adding a requirement to tour may sell a few thousand albums...at most...but that is nothing to getting songs on the radio, which larger labels can do, or filming a video back in the 80's. Your own example proves MY point...touring for BNW and Cyclorama did not sell the album, even when Cyclorama is awesome...and they went on tour with Journey and REO playing very good venues and sold very well.

His Orchestra album has nothing to do it. Were talking about the events of when TS contacted DDY about regrouping Styx.

You are trying to twist things.

I brought up the phone call because DDY *ADMITTED* he was promoting Boomchild.

His orchestra album DOES matter because he DID tour for that album and it didn't sell squat compared to a Styx album.

Not the full picture. DDY himself has admitted that TS called him multiple times asking to reform Styx. The last call TS told Dennis that he had the offer from Jack and Ted...and Dennis TOLD HIM TO DO IT. In fact, this was said by Dennis in an interview with Andrew.

Those calls all occurred during the time frame that DDY was working on the Boomchild project.

Exactly "CALLS"...not just one.

DDY didn't tell TS to go with the DY project.

Quote the interview...because I believe he said two different things in two different interviews. The one with Andrew I believe he said to join DY.

Doing one music video is hardly promotion.

IT IS PROMOTION. Especially band in the early 90's when videos were still somewhat a 'thing'.

You can make all the comparisons you want to Steve Perry. All you are doing is deflecting form the most glaring FACT of this whole discussion. Which is DDY stated that he was not looking to put forth a full fledged solo career after the '84 break up. He wanted to give TS time in the hopes that he would change his mind return to the fold. So he was just filling his time with the hopes that things could be patched up with TS.

I am making a very valid comparison. Steve Perry wasn't intending to launch a 'full fledged solo career' either. In fact, during the "Foolish Heart" video, the entire Journey lineup showed up to try to show the band was still together. The only difference between the two is "Street Talk" was managed MUCH better, had better videos, became popular with bigger hit singles, and sold a bit more. Herbie managed Perry's "Street Talk" release...had a "brand" of certain type of video, a certain style of song, and was recognized beyond "the lead singer of Journey". Whoever was in charge of Dennis' solo releases SUCKED at "branding".

[Boomchild]

No, it's not. It's your misperception and not seeing the big picture of how albums become so successful, especially back then.

Again please provide a industry study or someone in the industry that supports your perception.

You are trying to twist things.

No, it's you that is trying to include things that has nothing to do with what I was talking about.

Exactly "CALLS"...not just one.

So? They all occurred during the time DDY was working on the Boomchild project and DDY clearly wasn't going to abandon it. It wasn't like DDY didn't have a prior commitment and TS rang him up and DDY blew him off. I guess you expect people to have ESP.

Quote the interview...because I believe he said two different things in two different interviews. The one with Andrew I believe he said to join DY.

What you believe and what is reality are two separate things. To the best of my memory he talks about that time period in the following interview.

http://www.artistshousemusic.org/videos/dennis+deyoung

I am making a very valid comparison. Steve Perry wasn't intending to launch a 'full fledged solo career' either. In fact, during the "Foolish Heart" video, the entire Journey lineup showed up to try to show the band was still together. The only difference between the two is "Street Talk" was managed MUCH better, had better videos, became popular with bigger hit singles, and sold a bit more. Herbie managed Perry's "Street Talk" release...had a "brand" of certain type of video, a certain style of song, and was recognized beyond "the lead singer of Journey". Whoever was in charge of Dennis' solo releases SUCKED at "branding".

Steve Perry is not Dennis DeYoung and vice versa. I know nothing about Steve Perry's plans and quite frankly don't care to. What I do know is that DDY NEVER WANTED to make himself out to be a full fledged solo artist and what he did or didn't do reflects that premise. That is it in a nutshell. PERIOD. He obviously wasn't concerned about this "branding" you keep pontificating about.

[Boomchild]

Sorry if you can't handle the truth Boomer. But the fact of the matter is that Dennis is the primary reason the Styx brand is so valuable. Period. You and your buddy Monkey can cry over it all you want, but facts are facts.

Great, now go over to DDY's Facebook page and let him know he is full of shit and that he knows nothing about what lead to the success of Styx. You are now bordering on being delusional. If you think that Styx would have been just as successful without TS and JY and some other people in their place your sadly mistaken. It was that specific combination. Sorry but you should realize by now nobody is biting on your theory.

[gr8dane]

I think the point trying to be made with this post is that instead of a band focusing on their music, their focusing on their merchandise. As I mentioned above they have been making statements about new music this year. One would think that they would be focused on pushing that not merchandise. Other classic bands usually put the focus on their new music when they are working on a new release.

But, the point being made is instead of a 'fan' focusing on the music, we have the anti-fan Toph who is a creepy online stalker asshole who hangs out at artists websites that he supposedly hates just looking for crap to whine about. Stalk, stalk, stalk, whine, whine, whine.

And you're a fucking freak that constantly is getting kicked off Journey message boards...

Since you like talking about Monker being kicked off so much,
remember when you were kicked off from here?
No ?,then check 'The Metal Show' thread.Found something for you.

[Toph]

You note that you do not refute my point that Dennis primarily built the Styx brand that TS/JY are cashing in on now. You just try to deflect the situation by calling me a bullshitter/liar etc. Sound a lot like Trump there, Monkeyboy

You are a complete idiot. None of this stuff has to do with "branding". It's a MANAGERS job.

Herbie Herbert built the Journey brand in the late 80's through the 90's WITHOUT THE BAND EVEN EXISTING. He made Journey's back catalog one of the most profitable in the industry. It has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with who wrote what songs and how many were written and all of this crap you are talking about. It has to do with radio and airplay, and HOW albums are released, even the album artwork and live experience, etc. THAT is branding, what you are posting is complete BULLSHIT because all you know is your insane belief that Dennis IS Styx.

You know how to tell when Monker doesn't have a point? He goes into non-sequitur mode. What does Journey have to do with this conversation? Styx has a brand. No, its not as big of a brand as Journey, but its still a brand. And a helluva bigger brand than "Dennis DeYoung." Its a brand built from its hit records, touring, and albums. Whose responsible for the majority of that? DDY. He's not responsible for all of it. But he's responsible for at least 2/3 of it. And the others cash in on it by making jewelry, scarves, T Shirts, coffee, and other bullshit items that suckers are willing to spend $ for.

[Toph]

Wow, you really have no clue. So you think that promoting oneself as Dennis DeYoung is the same as promoting one as Styx?

No. I think think that if you are correct and he was so responsible for the branding of Styx, he should be able to do the same for himself and his own brand. He has NOT been able to do it.

This wasn't a band that advertised or featured individual members. It was a "faceless corporate rock band" as has been alluded to many times.

This is a direct quote from a Rolling Stone article that pointed fingers at EVERY Melodic Rock band of the early 80's....not just Styx. Journey, REO, and Foreigner were included. I believe they said something about swapping drummer and nobody would ever know.

I find it pretty sad that you would give such an article so much credit and cite it as evidence that DDY was not known. You are essentially agreeing that he could replace Kevin Cronin in REO and nobody would know. THAT is what the Rolling Stone article that YOU are quoting was saying.

Dude, I've been in branding for many years and you really shouldn't speak from where you have no knowledge base. To even try to imply that DDY could have created a brand on the size and scale of Styx is absolutely insane. Styx got its brand strength from being a hit making machine for almost 10 straight years. Albums, tours, hit records from relatively young guys created that brand. Dennis DeYoung solo is basically starting from scratch because the most the general music consumer might have known was that DDY was a guy in Styx. Many didn't even know that. Styx never went out like Kiss or Aerosmith and focused on the names of its members. That is a fact. Maybe a magazine also picked it up, but it was a fact. Never did Styx feature themselves on the cover of their albums. The band wasn't called "Dennis DeYoung and Styx" So to think DDY could just flip a switch and become as power of a brand as Styx is ignorant.

[Monker]

To even try to imply that DDY could have created a brand on the size and scale of Styx is absolutely insane.

EXACTLY. And, to say that he alone did 85% of the work for Styx is also fucking insane.

Styx got its brand strength from being a hit making machine for almost 10 straight years. Albums, tours, hit records from relatively young guys created that brand.

EXACTLY....young guyS. Not just one guy. And, those guyS extend outside of the band and into management.

Maybe a magazine also picked it up, but it was a fact.

Stop your bullshitting. You directly quoted a very famous Rolling Stone magazine article. If you didn't know that, then you are an idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about.

[Monker]

What does Journey have to do with this conversation?

Because I know the details of Journey a lot more than the details of Styx. I know that Herbie Herbert and his team was masterful at making and marketing the Journey brand. It has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with who wrote what and how many songs. It has to do with all kinds of other things to get those songs heard, played on the radio, designing album covers, promotion, and all of these other things.

Styx has a brand. No, its not as big of a brand as Journey, but its still a brand.

The point is that Journey's is bigger because Journey had better management - not better songs. Both of these bands were voted most popular in the US at around the same time but Journey retained their brand years after. How? By getting songs on soundtracks, releasing a box set with "new" songs, Herbie keeping the songs on the radio, selling the GH Album, keeping the songs played anywhere he could. THAT is branding not, "Bob wrote more popular songs than Jill so Bob was more responsible for the brand." That's bullshit...the person who took the songs out and SOLD it and marketed it to keep it in the public view was responsible for the brand.

And a helluva bigger brand than "Dennis DeYoung."

That's because Denis DeYoung did not have the people working on it like Styx did. He didn't have the people working on it like Steve Perry did, either. THAT his brand is so small. HE ALONE CAN NOT DO IT.

Its a brand built from its hit records, touring, and albums. Whose responsible for the majority of that?

Their management. Managements ets up the tours. Other people design the stage. Other people record, produce, the album, even design the album cover. Management gets songs on the radio. Management negotiates recording contracts.

DDY. He's not responsible for all of it. But he's responsible for at least 2/3 of it.

NO he's not. First of all saying he's "responsible" for it is a lie, he's not "responsible" for branding at all. Then crediting 2/3 of it to him is simply NUTS. Anybody who is not having love fantasies with DDY should see that.

And the others cash in on it by making jewelry, scarves, T Shirts, coffee, and other bullshit items that suckers are willing to spend $ for.

Just like every other rock band on the planet. Please, grow up. You are just a big baby who is upset that Dennis is not in the band any longer and have whined about it for 15yrs because you can't get over it.

[Toph]

You are now just talking incoherent gibberish. Just...stop. You still imply that Dennis DeYoung as a solo artist should be as big as Styx the band when he was in it. Complete nonsense. You really haven't a clue. Stop embarrassing yourself.

[Boomchild]

You are now just talking incoherent gibberish. Just...stop. You still imply that Dennis DeYoung as a solo artist should be as big as Styx the band when he was in it. Complete nonsense. You really haven't a clue. Stop embarrassing yourself.

I have no doubt that neither of them (TS, JY and DDY) could be as successful as a solo artist as they were as a group. It seems that they do their best work when collaborating with others. Which has nothing to do with the branding aspect.

[Monker]

You are now just talking incoherent gibberish. Just...stop. You still imply that Dennis DeYoung as a solo artist should be as big as Styx the band when he was in it. Complete nonsense. You really haven't a clue. Stop embarrassing yourself.

You are talking in circles. Either Dennis deserves 85% of the credit for Styx success, or they all share it. If he deserves 85% of the credit, then his solo career, then and/or now, should have been a lot been more successful than it was and is.

[Monker]

You are now just talking incoherent gibberish. Just...stop. You still imply that Dennis DeYoung as a solo artist should be as big as Styx the band when he was in it. Complete nonsense. You really haven't a clue. Stop embarrassing yourself.

I have no doubt that neither of them (TS, JY and DDY) could be as successful as a solo artist as they were as a group. It seems that they do their best work when collaborating with others. Which has nothing to do with the branding aspect.

Exactly.

UNLESS you believe Dennis did ALL OF THE BRANDING HIMSELF for Styx (which is bullshit). If you believe that, then, again, he should have been able to deliver the same for his solo career - and he didn't.

[Boomchild]

Exactly.

UNLESS you believe Dennis did ALL OF THE BRANDING HIMSELF for Styx (which is bullshit). If you believe that, then, again, he should have been able to deliver the same for his solo career - and he didn't.

I do not see how you could really believe that since it is obvious that DDY doesn't believe that himself. DDY himself has made it clear that he believes it was the efforts of all of them that made Styx successful. Even IF Dennis was responsible for the majority of Styx' success, I don't subscribe to the notion that automatically his solo career would have reached the same level of success. There so many variables in the music business. There isn't one magic formula that works every time. Add to that, it's clear after the split in '84 DDY wasn't pushing hard to carve out a solo career. Heck, even when he was booted for good in '99 he had to be prodded by friends and family to continue on as a solo artist. He said himself he did not think that people were interested in seeing him perform solo.

[Toph]

You are now just talking incoherent gibberish. Just...stop. You still imply that Dennis DeYoung as a solo artist should be as big as Styx the band when he was in it. Complete nonsense. You really haven't a clue. Stop embarrassing yourself.

You are talking in circles. Either Dennis deserves 85% of the credit for Styx success, or they all share it. If he deserves 85% of the credit, then his solo career, then and/or now, should have been a lot been more successful than it was and is.

Wrong! His solo career was under Dennis DeYoung. Not Styx. Why is this so hard for you?

[Toph]

You are now just talking incoherent gibberish. Just...stop. You still imply that Dennis DeYoung as a solo artist should be as big as Styx the band when he was in it. Complete nonsense. You really haven't a clue. Stop embarrassing yourself.

I have no doubt that neither of them (TS, JY and DDY) could be as successful as a solo artist as they were as a group. It seems that they do their best work when collaborating with others. Which has nothing to do with the branding aspect.

Exactly.

UNLESS you believe Dennis did ALL OF THE BRANDING HIMSELF for Styx (which is bullshit). If you believe that, then, again, he should have been able to deliver the same for his solo career - and he didn't.

you're talking in circles now. I have no idea what you are even spewing at this point.

[masque]

i dont see what the big argument is here;

DDY was the most influential and primary reason for Styx's success.....that is pretty much undeniable. But he was far from being the only reason for their success. but i do agree with his statement on behind the music that he was the president of a democracy.....makes sense.

but I think DDY would be the first to tell you that he would have never had the success he did without TS and JY. in fact, I think he's said it repeatedly over the years.

what I dont understand is why anyone would argue with any of that above, because it is all pretty factual......BUT, it has nothing to do with who we each prefer within the band, who our personal faves are or who sang the songs we loved the most.

as a result, I can be a bigger fan of TS than DDY, WHILE ALSO acknowledging that DDY was the driving force behind the band. and that exactly is how I am.....I love dennis and most of his contributions, but I am a bigger fan of tommy's and JY has certain songs that are high on my list of styx songs such as put me on and great white hope.

I think tommy can get credit for helping take them over the top with the public......call him the icing on the cake because he was very young, energetic and a pretty boy.....he got ALL of the 16 magazine covers and I would estimate that probably 75% of all styx member individual posters hung on walls were of tommy. even DDY has admitted and recognized that the addition of TS put styx on another planet as a band.

did tommy write more? no, did tommy control the artistic direction? no, but he was very important.....we all know that.....but I think we can all also know that it was dennis's bus to drive. so what? what's the big argument?

and as for their solo careers......their is no way to judge stuff like that at all.......very few artists ever go on to equal the success they had in their main gigs. even artists such as don henley as successful as he was, did not equal the popularity of the eagles. outside of michael jackson and a few other exceptions their are few that could ever claim they gained popularity after leaving their band....but he did have the benefit of his band name having his last name in it for all those years as well. and in michael's case, he grew beyond his brothers so much that they would have held him back.

in the case of styx, journey, foreigner, pink floyd, journey and others, we have audio proof with all of their solo albums that the collective input of their bandmates helped them create better songs and albums.

I dont think people realize that back in styx's heyday that albums typically had 7-8 songs.....so each writer was contributing 2-3 songs at the most per album.......then all of a sudden in their solo years you had longer albums being released and all of a sudden they had to bring 8-12 songs to the table each time worthy enough to carry an album, which they had never had to do before. and I can tell you that is no easy task unless you are going through a creative spurt. so by default, i think it was not a surprise that these folks solo albums paled in comparison to their main band's albums.