Styx: In Their Own Words

[StyxGuy]

Tommy and JY talk about Styx (from 2014?)

Of course, Dennis *has* to come up...

Cripes... Tommy does look a little torn when JY is blabbing on about Dennis

https://vimeo.com/92973630

[Boomchild]

In my opinion JY has always seemed to have more of an issue with DDY then TS. I contend that under all the "issues" JY has with DDY lies a layer of jealousy.

[masque]

I dont think Tommy looks uncomfortable at all...I think he's probably tired of talking about it.

Cause honestly, it is like a divorce......once that happened 35 years ago....and then they briefly tried to reconcile again for about 2 years and split up again 18 years ago.

I've been divorced and when people that knew us both ask me about my X it is very tiring and I have no desire to discuss it. so I get where he would be coming from on this subject.

as for JY, I dont think it's as much jealously as resentment over JY's perception of DDY trying to dominate or rule the band from JY's point of view. I think you can hear in his voice and see in his body language that he truly has disdain over DDY.

[Boomchild]

I dont think Tommy looks uncomfortable at all...I think he's probably tired of talking about it.

The way I see it, from the get go TS has been the least vocal about DDY.

as for JY, I dont think it's as much jealously as resentment over JY's perception of DDY trying to dominate or rule the band from JY's point of view. I think you can hear in his voice and see in his body language that he truly has disdain over DDY.

Resentment is a better word for it. I truly believe JY doesn't like that DDY became synonymous with the name Styx. That he garnered more of the attention. That the songs he penned got more attention. That a lot of the songs JY brought to the table got rejected. That both TS and DDY had to work on songs JY submitted to make them usable. That DDY made more money due to him being the song writer for songs that got airplay and sold singles. Also I would throw in that it was easier for DDY to get deals for solo projects. Back in '84 when they split right off the bat both DDY and TS got solo deals from A&M leaving JY in the cold. To add insult to injury when JY finally put together his first solo project he couldn't get a single label to take it. He had to resort to starting his own independent label to release it. If my memory serves me correctly the hype sticker on his "City Slicker" album read "The Tall Blond Guy From Styx". That indicates a lot.

[gr8dane]

I dont think Tommy looks uncomfortable at all...I think he's probably tired of talking about it.

The way I see it, from the get go TS has been the least vocal about DDY.

as for JY, I dont think it's as much jealously as resentment over JY's perception of DDY trying to dominate or rule the band from JY's point of view. I think you can hear in his voice and see in his body language that he truly has disdain over DDY.

Resentment is a better word for it. I truly believe JY doesn't like that DDY became synonymous with the name Styx. That he garnered more of the attention. That the songs he penned got more attention. That a lot of the songs JY brought to the table got rejected. That both TS and DDY had to work on songs JY submitted to make them usable. That DDY made more money due to him being the song writer for songs that got airplay and sold singles. Also I would throw in that it was easier for DDY to get deals for solo projects. Back in '84 when they split right off the bat both DDY and TS got solo deals from A&M leaving JY in the cold. To add insult to injury when JY finally put together his first solo project he couldn't get a single label to take it. He had to resort to starting his own independent label to release it. If my memory serves me correctly the hype sticker on his "City Slicker" album read "The Tall Blond Guy From Styx". That indicates a lot.

Shouldn't JY feel resentment towards Tommy then?.You could put Tommy's name in most of the places, where you have put DDY.

[Boomchild]

Shouldn't JY feel resentment towards Tommy then?.You could put Tommy's name in most of the places, where you have put DDY.

If you take a passing look at it you could make that assumption. I think it is safe to say the DDY financially benefited from Styx more then any of the others. Keep in mind that JY used to have his lawyers send letters to TS about things he wasn't happy about. TS was quoted laughing about the letters in Sterling's book. It's obvious that JY wanted DDY out of the band. In order to do that he needed TS to be on his side. I think it's also safe to say that JY and TS agreed on things more then JY and DDY did.

[Boomchild]

Shouldn't JY feel resentment towards Tommy then?.You could put Tommy's name in most of the places, where you have put DDY.

If you take a passing look at it you could make that assumption. I think it is safe to say the DDY financially benefited from Styx more then any of the others. Keep in mind that JY used to have his lawyers send letters to TS about things he wasn't happy about. TS was quoted laughing about the letters in Sterling's book. It's obvious that JY wanted DDY out of the band. In order to do that he needed TS to be on his side. I think it's also safe to say that JY and TS agreed on things more then JY and DDY did.

[StyxGuy]

Shouldn't JY feel resentment towards Tommy then?.You could put Tommy's name in most of the places, where you have put DDY.

If you take a passing look at it you could make that assumption. I think it is safe to say the DDY financially benefited from Styx more then any of the others. Keep in mind that JY used to have his lawyers send letters to TS about things he wasn't happy about. TS was quoted laughing about the letters in Sterling's book. It's obvious that JY wanted DDY out of the band. In order to do that he needed TS to be on his side. I think it's also safe to say that JY and TS agreed on things more then JY and DDY did.

Heh yeah, I haven't read the Sterling book but I have heard about JY being the "overly litigious" one, always wanting things in-writing and doing stuff via lawyers frequently.

I'll always tell myself that Tommy and Dennis could have kept working together (though apparently their wives definitely didn't get along?) and it was mostly JY who really wanted to lose Dennis and when the opportunity arose he struck hard.

[Boomchild]

Heh yeah, I haven't read the Sterling book but I have heard about JY being the "overly litigious" one, always wanting things in-writing and doing stuff via lawyers frequently.

I'll always tell myself that Tommy and Dennis could have kept working together (though apparently their wives definitely didn't get along?) and it was mostly JY who really wanted to lose Dennis and when the opportunity arose he struck hard.

I wouldn't be surprised if DDY's wife "stuck her nose in" where it didn't belong at times. It seems TS' current wife did\does as well. I remember watching her comments on the BTM episode on Styx. I was thinking to my self "who the fuck are you", "You weren't there for 99.99% of the history these have together". The main point is none of these guys are saints. They were all grown men. So I don't believe the victim of DDY mentality they seem to present. The inner workings of the band seem to be complex. Even Glenn commented that the inner workings of the band were different then any other band or group he participated in. In my opinion all the strife boils down to two things: Money and Control. Such seems to be the case with most bands\groups that achieve the level of success that Styx did.

[gr8dane]

Shouldn't JY feel resentment towards Tommy then?.You could put Tommy's name in most of the places, where you have put DDY.

If you take a passing look at it you could make that assumption. I think it is safe to say the DDY financially benefited from Styx more then any of the others. Keep in mind that JY used to have his lawyers send letters to TS about things he wasn't happy about. TS was quoted laughing about the letters in Sterling's book. It's obvious that JY wanted DDY out of the band. In order to do that he needed TS to be on his side. I think it's also safe to say that JY and TS agreed on things more then JY and DDY did.

Talking about Sterling's book : Remember where Dennis and Tommy is having an argument?, Dennis keeps shutting down Tommy to get his point through.Tommy is of course pissed,'with the look, he's never going to talk to me like that again'. page 290.I think.And Tommy was right.Dennis got the boot LOL.

[Boomchild]

Talking about Sterling's book : Remember where Dennis and Tommy is having an argument?, Dennis keeps shutting down Tommy to get his point through.Tommy is of course pissed,'with the look, he's never going to talk to me like that again'. page 290.I think.And Tommy was right.Dennis got the boot LOL.

Wow look, a time when TS actually confronted the person he had an issue(s) with. Usually, he would bitch and moan to others instead of that actual person he had the issue(s) with. Was this when TS was on or off drugs. Drugs do funny things to people's recollections to past events.

[gr8dane]

Talking about Sterling's book : Remember where Dennis and Tommy is having an argument?, Dennis keeps shutting down Tommy to get his point through.Tommy is of course pissed,'with the look, he's never going to talk to me like that again'. page 290.I think.And Tommy was right.Dennis got the boot LOL.

Wow look, a time when TS actually confronted the person he had an issue(s) with. Usually, he would bitch and moan to others instead of that actual person he had the issue(s) with. Was this when TS was on or off drugs. Drugs do funny things to people's recollections to past events.

LOL.I thought you were toph for a second there.
Drugs or no drugs.If being in an argument with Dennis, means him basically taking over, shutting you down to get his opinions across, I can't blame Tommy for bitching and moaning, If it has happened once it has probably happened lots, if not, quite a few times, with Dennis being Dennis.Anyways,Tommy would lose the arguments, but he ended up winning Styx.LOL.Which really is all that matters here.
Drugs doing funny things to your recollection,? You speak from your own experience ?

[masque]

Heh yeah, I haven't read the Sterling book but I have heard about JY being the "overly litigious" one, always wanting things in-writing and doing stuff via lawyers frequently.

I'll always tell myself that Tommy and Dennis could have kept working together (though apparently their wives definitely didn't get along?) and it was mostly JY who really wanted to lose Dennis and when the opportunity arose he struck hard.

I wouldn't be surprised if DDY's wife "stuck her nose in" where it didn't belong at times. It seems TS' current wife did\does as well. I remember watching her comments on the BTM episode on Styx. I was thinking to my self "who the fuck are you", "You weren't there for 99.99% of the history these have together". The main point is none of these guys are saints. They were all grown men. So I don't believe the victim of DDY mentality they seem to present. The inner workings of the band seem to be complex. Even Glenn commented that the inner workings of the band were different then any other band or group he participated in. In my opinion all the strife boils down to two things: Money and Control. Such seems to be the case with most bands\groups that achieve the level of success that Styx did.

ding ding ding.......I have always said the answer to all questions in life is MONEY. But I will make an exception to my policy and agree that in their case it will likely money and control like you stated.

[masque]

dont you guys remember DDY actually saying on BTM that he did really truly believe that he knew what was best for styx and he saw it as being a democracy of which he was the president or something along those lines?


i think all of this boils down to what tommy literally says in the dan rather snippet already released, he's just too old and at a point in his life that he doesnt need any drama. so what that says to me is that he's made enough money and continues to make enough money that there is no pressing need financially to bring DDY back in. Obviously, TS doesn't feel like he jives very well with DDY anymore and that's OK for him personally......it sucks for all of us wishing it was different, but hey, it's life.

as for JY, I actually have sympathy for his position. he's a founding member, because he was there before they were signed. one could argue that until Lady broke, that styx was more JY's band than anyone else's. then after lady, here comes TS, DDY has more control and JY is slowly losing control of a band that he'd had control over for several years. JY is intelligent and he grudgingly accepts it because now there are bigger tours and more money to be made.

then here comes grand illusion and pieces of eight. you're JY the rock guy and you couldn't be much happier......you've just finished touring the world playing songs like great white hope, renegade, blue collar man and queen of spades. time to record a new album and on the heels of queen of spades here comes babe and first time and why me. honestly folks, that would have been a major shock for anyone in that band. I'm not debating whether they are well written songs or not, they are. I'm not debating whether I like any of them, i do, especially why me. I'm just saying, try to separate yourself from their known history and try imagining how it would have felt in real time? imagine being JY with great white hope, renegade, queen of spades and blue collar man on the last tour and now you hear what DDY is bringing in....I would imagine it would have been a tough pill to swallow.

but JY swallowed that pill reluctantly, very reluctantly and only after him and the rest found out at that time there was really no future without DDY.

so you wallow through cornerstone and DDY comes back for PT with a concept requiring everyone to write to a loose theme. So you reluctantly agree to do all of that as well, because the band is huge, the tours are huge, and you're making alot of money. you're also a HUGE part of the live show.

here comes Kilroy.....I'm sure JY was thinking, ok another concept album.....except this one is even more specific and it's about robots. and we're gonna act on stage and play small theaters instead of playing enormo domes. keep in mind, I'm sure alot of JY's income was coming from touring, while DDY got touring money AND writing money for the songs that were hits. so once again, imagine being JY, a founding partner, a guy who has been there from the start, suddenly being asked to do these things and essentially some of DDY's desires actually costing JY some potential income? That wouldn't set too well with me, I know that.

so they break up for various reasons. doesn't everyone remember JY saying in BTM, which DDY has never refuted, that DDY would only get styx back together without TS, if JY and other others signed over ALL control and veto power to DDY. Imagine being JY, you need the band, you may even need the income, you are a founding member, you have been in the trenches with DDY for decades and he will only play ball if he has 100% control. That is a HUGE bitter pill to swallow.

then fast forward to the late 90's, their star is on the rise again.....money to be made all over and DDY either can't or won't do most of it. once again, JY has to be asking himself, dear god how long am I gonna deal with this? so when the opportunity finally and truly came that he no longer did, he took the different path. and apparently, he's been able to make enough money without DDY to warrant and validate that decision.

I am in no way saying JY and TS are innocent or without fault in their issues.....I'm just saying there are multitudes of ways to look at any split......I wish they could all be together, but I think I do sympathize with how and why JY feels like he does alot more than most folks do.

and I know lots of you will say things like well JY would have never gotten anywhere without DDY etc. etc. etc......that may be true, we will never know. but DDY himself has ALWAYS claimed that JY was a huge part of their success and sound......so if that was truly the case, and you know that JY believed that, then ask yourself, how you would have felt over the years having to always take a back seat to what DDY wanted.......up to the point, that DDY would only play in that band with you if you signed away any ability to have any control yourself. think about that......we all love DDY and he comes across all goofy and love-y and funny.....but damn man, that is hard core control anyway you slice it. great for DDY that he was able to achieve that kind of success.....but when you rise that far, dont expect to not find out that you may have possibly trampled over the top of a few people you were close to on the way up.

[Boomchild]

LOL.I thought you were toph for a second there.
Drugs or no drugs.If being in an argument with Dennis, means him basically taking over, shutting you down to get his opinions across, I can't blame Tommy for bitching and moaning, If it has happened once it has probably happened lots, if not, quite a few times, with Dennis being Dennis.Anyways,Tommy would lose the arguments, but he ended up winning Styx.LOL.Which really is all that matters here.
Drugs doing funny things to your recollection,? You speak from your own experience ?

Like Toph? That's a laugh. I have always said and even did in this thread, that NONE of these guys are saints. Meaning that they all contributed to the problems they had. It's clear from those that where there that typically TS had a problem directly confronting people he had issues with. I also think people including you totally discount the negative impact TS' substance abuse issues had on band member relationships. We know from TS' own admission that his drug use goes back as far as '77. It is naive to think that it doesn't impact TS' recollection of events. It's a good thing for TS that DDY apparently has chosen not to address that subject in public. If he did, perhaps some people's views on TS may be different. The main point here is that none of these guys really can pull out the victim card like so many seem to want to do.

[Boomchild]

dont you guys remember DDY actually saying on BTM that he did really truly believe that he knew what was best for styx and he saw it as being a democracy of which he was the president or something along those lines?

I have no doubt that DDY felt he knew what was best for the band. JY also said that DDY had natural "leadership" abilities. I'm sure DDY lobbied and argued hard for his ideas. We also know that the band's power structure was that they ALL had equal say in band decisions. So for whatever reasons the others went along with DDY's direction. It just seems that now after the fact they are upset at THEIR decision to do so. That is why I continue to say they can't play the victim card.

i think all of this boils down to what tommy literally says in the dan rather snippet already released, he's just too old and at a point in his life that he doesnt need any drama. so what that says to me is that he's made enough money and continues to make enough money that there is no pressing need financially to bring DDY back in. Obviously, TS doesn't feel like he jives very well with DDY anymore and that's OK for him personally......it sucks for all of us wishing it was different, but hey, it's life.

It was also easier to shut DDY out at the time they did. The band's legacy had been built. They no longer needed to write new material and sell albums to make money.

as for JY, I actually have sympathy for his position. he's a founding member, because he was there before they were signed. one could argue that until Lady broke, that styx was more JY's band than anyone else's. then after lady, here comes TS, DDY has more control and JY is slowly losing control of a band that he'd had control over for several years. JY is intelligent and he grudgingly accepts it because now there are bigger tours and more money to be made.

Sure JY was there early on. But the bands principle founding members were DDY, CP and JP. JY replaced another member that left. I do not agree that it was more JY's band pre Lady. Remember it has been stated that JY really didn't have the ability to bring songs to the table that could be used as they were. So he was being helped with that even during the WN days. Your really talking about the time when the band was trying to find their sound.

then here comes grand illusion and pieces of eight. you're JY the rock guy and you couldn't be much happier......you've just finished touring the world playing songs like great white hope, renegade, blue collar man and queen of spades. time to record a new album and on the heels of queen of spades here comes babe and first time and why me. honestly folks, that would have been a major shock for anyone in that band. I'm not debating whether they are well written songs or not, they are. I'm not debating whether I like any of them, i do, especially why me. I'm just saying, try to separate yourself from their known history and try imagining how it would have felt in real time? imagine being JY with great white hope, renegade, queen of spades and blue collar man on the last tour and now you hear what DDY is bringing in....I would imagine it would have been a tough pill to swallow.

but JY swallowed that pill reluctantly, very reluctantly and only after him and the rest found out at that time there was really no future without DDY.

so you wallow through cornerstone and DDY comes back for PT with a concept requiring everyone to write to a loose theme. So you reluctantly agree to do all of that as well, because the band is huge, the tours are huge, and you're making alot of money. you're also a HUGE part of the live show.

here comes Kilroy.....I'm sure JY was thinking, ok another concept album.....except this one is even more specific and it's about robots. and we're gonna act on stage and play small theaters instead of playing enormo domes. keep in mind, I'm sure alot of JY's income was coming from touring, while DDY got touring money AND writing money for the songs that were hits. so once again, imagine being JY, a founding partner, a guy who has been there from the start, suddenly being asked to do these things and essentially some of DDY's desires actually costing JY some potential income? That wouldn't set too well with me, I know that.

so they break up for various reasons. doesn't everyone remember JY saying in BTM, which DDY has never refuted, that DDY would only get styx back together without TS, if JY and other others signed over ALL control and veto power to DDY. Imagine being JY, you need the band, you may even need the income, you are a founding member, you have been in the trenches with DDY for decades and he will only play ball if he has 100% control. That is a HUGE bitter pill to swallow.

then fast forward to the late 90's, their star is on the rise again.....money to be made all over and DDY either can't or won't do most of it. once again, JY has to be asking himself, dear god how long am I gonna deal with this? so when the opportunity finally and truly came that he no longer did, he took the different path. and apparently, he's been able to make enough money without DDY to warrant and validate that decision.

I am in no way saying JY and TS are innocent or without fault in their issues.....I'm just saying there are multitudes of ways to look at any split......I wish they could all be together, but I think I do sympathize with how and why JY feels like he does alot more than most folks do.

and I know lots of you will say things like well JY would have never gotten anywhere without DDY etc. etc. etc......that may be true, we will never know. but DDY himself has ALWAYS claimed that JY was a huge part of their success and sound......so if that was truly the case, and you know that JY believed that, then ask yourself, how you would have felt over the years having to always take a back seat to what DDY wanted.......up to the point, that DDY would only play in that band with you if you signed away any ability to have any control yourself. think about that......we all love DDY and he comes across all goofy and love-y and funny.....but damn man, that is hard core control anyway you slice it. great for DDY that he was able to achieve that kind of success.....but when you rise that far, dont expect to not find out that you may have possibly trampled over the top of a few people you were close to on the way up.

I'm my opinion I think that JY has chip on his shoulder because as the band gained more success and popularity his presence as a band member was pushed more and more to the background. When people were looking to interview members of the band they weren't contacting him. They were contacting DDY and TS. That doesn't sit well for people with egos. And I think it's safe to say that like DDY and TS he had a big ego as well. Also I don't think that any of these guys were ever real close "friends". The other key thing to remember is that JY has said that he and DDY were ALWAYS polar opposites when it came to musical direction. That is the key. No matter what, it was going to be a problem that would rear it's ugly head at some point. It's a foundation for conflict.

[masque]

^ I agree with most of that as well!

[gr8dane]

LOL.I thought you were toph for a second there.
Drugs or no drugs.If being in an argument with Dennis, means him basically taking over, shutting you down to get his opinions across, I can't blame Tommy for bitching and moaning, If it has happened once it has probably happened lots, if not, quite a few times, with Dennis being Dennis.Anyways,Tommy would lose the arguments, but he ended up winning Styx.LOL.Which really is all that matters here.
Drugs doing funny things to your recollection,? You speak from your own experience ?

Like Toph? That's a laugh. I have always said and even did in this thread, that NONE of these guys are saints. Meaning that they all contributed to the problems they had. It's clear from those that where there that typically TS had a problem directly confronting people he had issues with. I also think people including you totally discount the negative impact TS' substance abuse issues had on band member relationships. We know from TS' own admission that his drug use goes back as far as '77. It is naive to think that it doesn't impact TS' recollection of events. It's a good thing for TS that DDY apparently has chosen not to address that subject in public. If he did, perhaps some people's views on TS may be different. The main point here is that none of these guys really can pull out the victim card like so many seem to want to do.

Drug addiction doesn't help, no doubt about it. To me smoking a joint, fits in the group of having a drink or smoking a cigarette though.
Yes, I know you often say they all weren't saints.And i know they all couldn't have been.
But, I would be interested to hear, where,what ,how Dennis may not be the a saint.? In your opinion.I like to hear some suggestions.
And re- the Dennis not openly talking about Tommy's addiction, wouldn't really help in him getting back in the band.

[Boomchild]

Drug addiction doesn't help, no doubt about it. To me smoking a joint, fits in the group of having a drink or smoking a cigarette though.

Except that description does not truly depict TS' substance abuse. We know from the BTM episode that as far back as '77-'78 TS was using coke. Remember the bit from BTM where TS and the band's A\R guy talked about that "if you had blow the DJ's and station managers would follow you like penguins"? Then you also have the statement by one of TS' close friends (BTM) that when it came to TS' substance abuse he didn't "burn the candle at both ends but threw the candle into the fire". Based on that it is extremely likely that his drug use caused issues.

Yes, I know you often say they all weren't saints.And i know they all couldn't have been.
But, I would be interested to hear, where,what ,how Dennis may not be the a saint.? In your opinion.I like to hear some suggestions.

As I mentioned before, JY clearly said that DDY had natural leadership abilities that he himself didn't. That lead to DDY taking a controlling role early on. Add to the fact JY also said that early on DDY believed more then he did on the prospect of their success. This situation lead to DDY most likely becoming more heavy handed when it came to band decisions. Then as ideas DDY brought to the table were fostering results he became more convinced that he should be the one steering the ship. I have no doubt at times he took things to far. Having said that the others enabled that to happen. They all had equal vote on band decisions. They had the power to stop him. They didn't and now want to cry fowl. To me that is BS. We are not talking about weak people that could be easily taken advantage of. The other two important things that I believe are being left out of the equation are: The pressure the label was putting on them and that the situation is more complex then what is being presented to the public. I believe this is a classic example of a power struggle. I believe they never really jelled like other band mates were able to do. I believe that back stabbing moves were performed by all of them. As I said before when from the get go you have two band members that are "polar opposites" when it comes to musical direction, that is a recipe for disaster. It eventually would and did cause a rift. I cannot understand why JY joined the band with the way he talks about DDY and what the band was like back when he joined. They really were not JY's style.

And re- the Dennis not openly talking about Tommy's addiction, wouldn't really help in him getting back in the band.

I think even with DDY's public statements about wishing for a reunion, he knows damn well it's not gonna happen. I think that DDY is the type of person that is not interested in airing the private dirty laundry of the band. He would rather the public focus on the music and their accomplishments despite what issues they may have had.

[gr8dane]

I heard the interview and it's a goody.
JY and Tommy talks about, that Dennis could be quite the wild man himself, around TGI tour.
Dennis would sometimes go to the toilet and then not wash his hands afterwards.
He would regularly eat crackers before bedtime and after he had brushed his teeth.
After one gig Dennis crashed out.When he woke up the next morning, he would put the same underpants back on.Imagine that?
Worst of all, the morning his finger went through the toilet paper, and he sniffed it.Hope Suzanne didn't hear about that one. Good ole Dennis.

[Cassie May]

Talking about Sterling's book : Remember where Dennis and Tommy is having an argument?, Dennis keeps shutting down Tommy to get his point through.Tommy is of course pissed,'with the look, he's never going to talk to me like that again'. page 290.I think.And Tommy was right.Dennis got the boot LOL.

Wow look, a time when TS actually confronted the person he had an issue(s) with. Usually, he would bitch and moan to others instead of that actual person he had the issue(s) with. Was this when TS was on or off drugs. Drugs do funny things to people's recollections to past events.

That incident took place after the CMN concert, and Sterling quoted Todd's description of the event. DDY and TS weren't arguing as much as it was DDY talking and TS having a look on his face like, "You'll never do this to me again." And, for clarification, TS had been sober for nearly a dozen years by that point.

[Boomchild]

That incident took place after the CMN concert, and Sterling quoted Todd's description of the event. DDY and TS weren't arguing as much as it was DDY talking and TS having a look on his face like, "You'll never do this to me again." And, for clarification, TS had been sober for nearly a dozen years by that point.

That certainly does provide "clarification". What do we know about that period in time? We know that by that time DDY knew they were continuing on without him and had already obtained a replacement. By that time, they shut DDY out of any input on the release of the BNW album. So I could see why DDY would be pissed and popped off on TS. I think it's safe to say that event was very hard for DDY to do but he did so because he didn't want to let the charity down.

[Toph]

d time to record a new album and on the heels of queen of spades here comes babe and first time and why me.

And Boat On the River and Never Say Never and Lights...

For the love of Moses, I don't know why you bathwater drinkers always give Tommy a pass for his Cornerstone material and for "She Cares" and for the ballads that he brought to Kilroy. You could argue that DDY had more rock songs since Cornerstone than Tommy did.

But that would blow the narrative wouldn't it?

[Toph]

Talking about Sterling's book : Remember where Dennis and Tommy is having an argument?, Dennis keeps shutting down Tommy to get his point through.Tommy is of course pissed,'with the look, he's never going to talk to me like that again'. page 290.I think.And Tommy was right.Dennis got the boot LOL.

Wow look, a time when TS actually confronted the person he had an issue(s) with. Usually, he would bitch and moan to others instead of that actual person he had the issue(s) with. Was this when TS was on or off drugs. Drugs do funny things to people's recollections to past events.

That incident took place after the CMN concert, and Sterling quoted Todd's description of the event. DDY and TS weren't arguing as much as it was DDY talking and TS having a look on his face like, "You'll never do this to me again." And, for clarification, TS had been sober for nearly a dozen years by that point.

Yeah...Tommy's been sober....

[yogi]

All I can say about this is at the time Cornerstone came out Babe was already a monster hit and while not my favorite I liked it. First Time had the exact Babe vibe, this was gonna be another MONSTER hit ( but wasnt allowed to be), and again it was not my favorite Styx material but it sounded like Styx and I liked it.

Now when I heard Boat On the River I thought WTF is this shi t. I hated it and couldnt run fast enough when Never say Never was about to end to pick the needle up. I like the shi t out of this song now but when I was 14 it sucked. BIG time!

To think now DDY was booted for Babe & First Time but Tommy didnt have to owe up to Boat On The River( off the same album) is laughable.

'Sometimes it makes no sense at all' TS

[StyxGuy]

All I can say about this is at the time Cornerstone came out Babe was already a monster hit and while not my favorite I liked it. First Time had the exact Babe vibe, this was gonna be another MONSTER hit ( but wasnt allowed to be), and again it was not my favorite Styx material but it sounded like Styx and I liked it.

Now when I heard Boat On the River I thought WTF is this shi t. I hated it and couldnt run fast enough when Never say Never was about to end to pick the needle up. I like the shi t out of this song now but when I was 14 it sucked. BIG time!

To think now DDY was booted for Babe & First Time but Tommy didnt have to owe up to Boat On The River( off the same album) is laughable.

'Sometimes it makes no sense at all' TS

Interestingly enough, Boat on the River was a fairly successful song in Europe for them. I posted it from Return to Paradise on youtube, and most of the likes and comments on it are Russian / European.

It peaked at No 5 in Germany and was on the charts for 30 some odd weeks. Not a hit in America but it did have success.

[masque]

actually I have heard them say that the song is actually the biggest hit they ever had outside of america.

[yogi]

It was, but at the time, being 14 I absolutely hated it.