Loyalty Of Journey Fans

[Journey/Survivor]

We all know that there is a certain segment of "Journey fans" who abandoned the band over Steve Perry's dismissal from the band, proving that those specific fans were mainly just Perry fans, not Journey fans.

Then there are a tremendous amount of people who care more about Journey as a whole than just Steve Perry.

How dedicated, passionate and loyal do you consider Journey's fan base to be overall?

Do you feel that it's really strong?

Do you feel that there are other bands fan bases that are way more passionate and loyal than Journey's? If so, then who?

Do you feel that any other band's fans have ever been as at war with each other over who's to blame in a band dispute as Journey's fans are over Perry, Schon, Cain, Smith and Valory? An example of that might be Eddie Van Halen, David Lee Roth and Sammy Hagar?

Please try to be honest and give your true beliefs on the topic without just criticizing the band members!

[danielb]

Perhaps more than with any other band, Perry was synonymous with Journey. Of course, the spirit of the band could never be the same following his departure. However, they came close with JSS, when they were on the verge of doing a Van Hagar. Ie, offering something new instead of trying to recreate the past. JSS owned the crowds with a natural swagger on his 2006 tour and he was able to channel Perry in a manner that was soulful and legit. For some reason, it didn't work out and they chose to go with Arnel instead. The karaoke feeling was decidedly stronger and the Journey currency suffered as a result, artistically speaking. The albums that followed certainly didn't add to their legacy. If anything, they sounded lightweight, like a band trying to sound like Journey rather than being the actual entity. The ghost of Perry still looms to this day.

[Monker]

We all know that there is a certain segment of "Journey fans" who abandoned the band over Steve Perry's dismissal from the band, proving that those specific fans were mainly just Perry fans, not Journey fans.

Then there are a tremendous amount of people who care more about Journey as a whole than just Steve Perry.

If you had been around in the early 1990's, you would find that there were hardly any fans online that would support Journey without Steve Perry. Even after FTLOSM and TBF, and Perry backing out of the tour and disappearing for months, getting fired, Augeri joining, and the BTM...Perry fans still seemed to out number those who just wanted to hear the band live.

The point is what exists today is a fraction of fans compared to 1990. What exists today are two kinds of 'fans'. Those who have been around for 40+ years and understand quotes like "...and the snow is real!" Or, remember that it was a talking point when Perry shaved off his mustache. The other group were not there, they may not have even been born yet, but wish they were and want to feel the same type of nostalgia even if they can't completely understand. And, it is the music that ties everybody together.

Do you feel that there are other bands fan bases that are way more passionate and loyal than Journey's? If so, then who?

Probably the Beatles, or Elvis. For bands in Journey's era, I don't know. Def Leppard, maybe. Queen? Maybe some of the metal or punk bands...but I don't know them that well. Maybe Metalica.

Do you feel that any other band's fans have ever been as at war with each other over who's to blame in a band dispute as Journey's fans are over Perry, Schon, Cain, Smith and Valory? An example of that might be Eddie Van Halen, David Lee Roth and Sammy Hagar?

Styx. It's the exact same thing....only Dennis drug out the fighting by constantly (for the last 5yrs, at least) asking for a reunion that the band does NOT want, constantly said they screwed him over (even though HE sued the band and HE signed a settlement and gave away his rights to the name). Love or hate Perry...when he was out, he was OUT. He never begged to be back in the band or went on media tours whining about how bad the band treated him, or lied, or whatever. His fans did those things, but he never encouraged it like Dennis did/does. I think Perry knew that damaging "Journey" hurt everybody - including himself. Being a part of Nightmare who owns the Journey trademark may have given him a different perspective on things. When Perry left Journey, he became more of a protector of his era of the band and not someone who criticized the band without him

[The_Noble_Cause]

I think Sony A&R guru, John Kalodner, said it best when talking to Andrew in 2002 - "I've never seen such craziness as what goes on with Journey fans."

Back then, forums were routinely being shut down from interfan cyber conflict. It happened here. It happened on BackTalk (the official Journey forums). Both Neal and SA's wife wrote posts on BT defending the current lineup. I still recall Neal telling off one Perry-fanatic: "sounds like you need a drink. Better make it a stiff one." Overall, Journey cyber fandom could be pretty toxic. The VH1 forum was mostly comprised of sniping and insults. Every positive Journey / Augeri thread on this very forum would seemingly be hijacked by Perryheads to promote their bashing agenda. We would return fire, they would play victim, and it would just keep escalating and escalating....

The media was also not friendly to a Perryless Journey. In one instance, the band appeared on the reality TV show, Blind Date, and the producers hung chyrons/text bubbles over Augeri comically stating: "Not Steve Perry!" Cain chronicles some of this in his autobiography. Radio wouldn't touch them. Augeri faced death threats. They had to put up their own money to book a small tour.

However, the landscape is different now (sort of). The DBS pop-cultural resurgence coinciding with Arnel's hiring has brought in new legions of fans. The fans seem to outnumber the new haters. As an aside, most of the negative comments that I see on FB or YT seem completely ignorant of band history. They take umbrage at Arnel replacing Perry - but seem to have no idea how much has transpired in-between (TBF, Augeri, Soto, etc.). Further proving that new Perry warriors have entered the fray. The decline of message boards and the aging fan base has also dampered the formerly white-hot flames. Fan apathy is also a factor. This used to be a band worth passionately defending (or so I told myself). However, it's hard to defend something that is so clearly mismanaged and dysfunctional.

Lastly, I think Perry holds some responsibility for the divisiveness. The VH1 Behind The Music - which, allegedly, he had some editorial control of -painted a false perception of an active healthy singer who had been wrongly ousted. To both casual fans and Perry die-hards, it made Neal and Jon appear impatient and cruel. SP's teasing of future projects made this faction redouble efforts to oppose the band. All these years later, I think these same fans have simply stopped believin' in him. He didn't have to endorse or promote the band - but he could have been clearer about his own career ambivalence. 

Just my $0.02.

[danielb]

Well summarised, TNC.

A Journey with no creative inspiration, just out there playing the dirty dozen with Arnel, has no purpose other than to fill the bank accounts of those involved.

Maybe Neal should simply jump ship and focus on JTT instead. Less money but a lot more fulfilling for both him and (die hard) fans, I predict.

[jrnyman28]

I still find entertainment when bored in going on Journey/Perry threads and engaging those posts that disparage Journey/Neal/Arnel. But it is certainly different than back in the VH1 bloodbath days.

[Art Vandelay]

Everyone's thoughts are subjective. You like what you like. I'm more of an R&B, soul and jazz fan than I am a classic rock fan. I make room for a little bit of everything on my playlists. I like what Steve Perry brought to the band, so yes I am a Perry fan. But because of that I'm also a Journey fan. I was just listening to Look Into The Future on my walk this morning. When everything turned into a soap opera, I gave up on them. The old music is there for me whenever I need it. That's all I need.

What I am enjoying these days are the first reaction videos. I especially like watching the deep dives and how the fans of other genres recognize the talent and the creativity. None of the drama is addressed. They are just recognizing the talent, power and emotion that the band is delivering. That's what brought us all to the band many moons ago. It's nice to see that the impact still stands.

[Monker]

A few things to add to what TNC said.

First Frank and Sky posted about the history of BT, how it was started. From what I remember, the original plan was to have a "Guestbook" where fans could go and leave a note for the band, or whatever....but not really a "forum" or a place for the band to interact with fans. They were not very interested in engaging the fans in this way. But, they went and sprung it on the band anyway and released BT as part of the website. So, all of the control issues, moderator issues, and general chaos of BT is a bit more understandable when you realize the band "really" did not want it in the first place.

Other forums being closed and such. VH1 was complete chaos because there was no daily moderation. Every once in a while someone would come in and try to control things...and then disappear. The chaos here at MR.com was from both sides. There was hazing done to anybody who seemed too much of a Perry fan. There was a "forum war" between here and BT in addition to the normal Perry war. Both sides of both wars did their share of instigating, insulting, and derailing threads. With all respect to Andrew, he has a hands off approach to the forums...that we are adults and should be able to act like adults without constant monitoring like you would have to for a child. But, not all adults act like adults on these forums, or internet in general...so, yeah, he would get frustrated, kick people off or send them on vacation, and even closed the forum a couple times. But, all sides were to blame for that, not just one. BT was the exact opposite issue with OVER moderation where NO critique of the band was allowed. No pictures were allowed to be posted unless approved. So, Perry fans could not critique Journey because they would be kicked out. Even Journey fans could not critique the latest concert or album or they could be kicked out. It became very cheerleader like...because that is all they allowed to be posted. Even to this day, if you go to Neal's Twitter or FB and critique him or Journey, you risk being blocked.

The big elephant in the room when it comes to forums was the old Sony forum. Sony created the behemoth of a web forum prior to the release of TBF. Every album having it's own thread, threads for everything imaginable. It was obviously unmanageable from the start. Then, of course, Perry disappears and the tour gets thrown up in the air. And, all chaos breaks out in the forum. They had to shut it down or hire an entire team to manage the forum. It was nuts...if they would have let it continue, it would have been as bad as VH1.

In the midst of all of this was the Usenet newsgroup alt.music.journey where the very nature of newgroups meant it was completely censorship free. You could say and do whatever you wanted, post whatever you wanted, argue however you wanted with whoever you wanted. That was fun....until Joe started spamming and trolling it so much. Then it became Joe's soapbox to attack Andrew and whoever else he felt was worth trolling...and the dozen or so posters all left for here or maybe BT.

What people do not remember was the time prior to TBF. There was the Journey mailing list, there was Prodigy and AOL. All of the same arguments existed but it seemed like I was the only one on the "Journey without Perry" side. It's a bit different when you say, "Journey should be Journey with Kevin Chalfant and Perry should be solo." and you have 200 different people all saying "No Perry, no Journey." When FTLOSM hit and Perry went on tour, the fandom was no where close to where it was during Arrival, where some people were willing to accept a replacement for Perry...and some finally recognized Perry's antics. The only "war" going on was me trying to convince the world that Journey would be better off without Steve Perry. The fandom wanted a reunion with Perry, or nothing. After TBF, everything changed and changed very quickly.

[Journey/Survivor]

Everyone's thoughts are subjective. You like what you like. I'm more of an R&B, soul and jazz fan than I am a classic rock fan. I make room for a little bit of everything on my playlists. I like what Steve Perry brought to the band, so yes I am a Perry fan. But because of that I'm also a Journey fan. I was just listening to Look Into The Future on my walk this morning. When everything turned into a soap opera, I gave up on them. The old music is there for me whenever I need it. That's all I need.

What I am enjoying these days are the first reaction videos. I especially like watching the deep dives and how the fans of other genres recognize the talent and the creativity. None of the drama is addressed. They are just recognizing the talent, power and emotion that the band is delivering. That's what brought us all to the band many moons ago. It's nice to see that the impact still stands.

I don't know if your post was in direct response to my initial post or not?

Just to be clear, I was in no way trying to say that a huge Steve Perry fan can't also be a huge Journey fan. I think that most if not all of us on here who are Journey fans are also a huge fan of Steve Perry's singing and over all musical talent.

I was only pointing out that there was a certain segment of people who were only truly Perry fans, and that those specific people are not true Journey fans.

[Art Vandelay]

Everyone's thoughts are subjective. You like what you like. I'm more of an R&B, soul and jazz fan than I am a classic rock fan. I make room for a little bit of everything on my playlists. I like what Steve Perry brought to the band, so yes I am a Perry fan. But because of that I'm also a Journey fan. I was just listening to Look Into The Future on my walk this morning. When everything turned into a soap opera, I gave up on them. The old music is there for me whenever I need it. That's all I need.

What I am enjoying these days are the first reaction videos. I especially like watching the deep dives and how the fans of other genres recognize the talent and the creativity. None of the drama is addressed. They are just recognizing the talent, power and emotion that the band is delivering. That's what brought us all to the band many moons ago. It's nice to see that the impact still stands.

I don't know if your post was in direct response to my initial post or not?

Just to be clear, I was in no way trying to say that a huge Steve Perry fan can't also be a huge Journey fan. I think that most if not all of us on here who are Journey fans are also a huge fan of Steve Perry's singing and over all musical talent.

I was only pointing out that there was a certain segment of people who were only truly Perry fans, and that those specific people are not true Journey fans.

Not at all. Was just expressing what I like about the band and where I stand with them. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what anyone thinks anyway. You get out it what you get out of it.

[Journey/Survivor]

Not at all. Was just expressing what I like about the band and where I stand with them. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what anyone thinks anyway. You get out it what you get out of it.[/quote]

Thanks for the reply!

I didn't know if maybe I had inadvertently worded my initial post in a way that made it seem like I was saying that no huge Perry fans were also Journey fans?

[FamilyMan]

Perhaps more than with any other band, Perry was synonymous with Journey. Of course, the spirit of the band could never be the same following his departure. However, they came close with JSS, when they were on the verge of doing a Van Hagar. Ie, offering something new instead of trying to recreate the past. JSS owned the crowds with a natural swagger on his 2006 tour and he was able to channel Perry in a manner that was soulful and legit. For some reason, it didn't work out and they chose to go with Arnel instead. The karaoke feeling was decidedly stronger and the Journey currency suffered as a result, artistically speaking. The albums that followed certainly didn't add to their legacy. If anything, they sounded lightweight, like a band trying to sound like Journey rather than being the actual entity. The ghost of Perry still looms to this day.

Weighing in here late, so apologies. I respectfully disagree. Are you saying JSS was as close as they came to sounding "spiritually" like they did with Perry? I personally never saw JSS as a good fit. He's not even a tenor voice. Augeri was, IMO, a surprising and inspiring choice - with Arrival not at all a lightweight effort. From Generations on, I would agree with you about those records. But I remember hearing "Remember Me" for the first time and thinking Journey's future looked (and sounded) bright.

[Journey/Survivor]

[quote="FamilyMan" I respectfully disagree. Are you saying JSS was as close as they came to sounding "spiritually" like they did with Perry? I personally never saw JSS as a good fit. He's not even a tenor voice. Augeri was, IMO, a surprising and inspiring choice.[/quote]

Agreed.

JSS is a great singer in many ways, but he was not a good fit for Journey live performances. He was a good front man, but his voice was not suited to singing the Perry era songs live.

JSS did an excellent job of doing studio covers of the Frontiers and Raised On Radio songs. And he "channeled" Steve Perry fantastically on the SoulSirkus song "Coming Home."

But based on the one live performance that I saw in person of him with Journey, and also based on the many bootleg recordings of him with Journey, he struggled a great deal singing the Perry catalog live.

I would have chosen Kevin Chalfant to be the singer in Journey back when Augeri was hired. But Augeri was a much better fit vocally than JSS ever was.

[jrnyman28]

“Coming Home” is the perfect example of why JSS was the right choice. But I think he would’ve been better before Augeri when the band had nothing else to lose. They would’ve been free to pursue any musical choice ( like Neal’s “more rock” idea) without the expectation to sound like Perry-era all the while being criticized for it.

[jrnyman28]

“Jeff Scott Soto's vocal range is that of a high tenor, capable of singing in the high tessitura of the tenor voice”

[Monker]

“Coming Home” is the perfect example of why JSS was the right choice. But I think he would’ve been better before Augeri when the band had nothing else to lose. They would’ve been free to pursue any musical choice ( like Neal’s “more rock” idea) without the expectation to sound like Perry-era all the while being criticized for it.

I don't think they could have gotten away with JSS after TBF. Remember, Sony had to be convinced to even release Arrival by Journey having successful tours with Vacations Over. So, he would have had to completely cover the Perry era live and had the "Perry with a perm" affect on the crowd. In the show I saw, JSS did an admirable job...he really did. But, the atmosphere was not close to what I saw with Augeri and Def Leppard totally stole the show. I think it would have been risky to replace Perry with JSS, tour, and expect Sony to agree to a release.

Neal (and the band as a whole) was propping up a "rockier" Journey from the hiring of Augeri all the way to Arnel. After Arnel was hired they were suddenly all into the retro sound and embracing the Perry era instead of trying to move on from it.

Also, Andrew had everybody thinking Perry released a new song when he posted this WET song without any explanation or note on who it was :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ay_GM17 ... U&index=12

[Eric]

But, the atmosphere was not close to what I saw with Augeri and Def Leppard totally stole the show. I think it would have been risky to replace Perry with JSS, tour, and expect Sony to agree to a release.

Neal (and the band as a whole) was propping up a "rockier" Journey from the hiring of Augeri all the way to Arnel. After Arnel was hired they were suddenly all into the retro sound and embracing the Perry era instead of trying to move on from it.

Obviously its subjective and everyone has their own opinion. I never thought Journey had more energy than when JSS was with them. But I remember Herbie mentioned they looked like an opener. So - just subjective.

While it may very well have been difficult to release a Journey record with JSS at the helm, I don't think Journey has done anything better Post-Perry than this tune that was basically Journey with JSS:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNoeAmHXpGE
I'd put this up there with my other Post-Perry faves: Higher Place, Change for the Better, Edge of the Moment and Together we Run.