Switching lead singers

[ek88]

What bands do you feel either maintained (or increased) their level of popularity/success/acceptance after making a switch at lead singer? These are the ones that come to my mind:

Van Halen: Sammy Hagar for David Lee Roth
AC/DC: Brian Johnson for Bon Scott
Helloween : Michael Kiske for Kai Hansen (Hansen remained with the band but no longer handled lead vocals)
Genesis: Phil Collins for Peter Gabriel

What others would you add to make this a more comprehensive list? Would you objectively put Larry Gowan for Dennis DeYoung on this list? Why or why not?

[swwskj]

Ek,

I would not put Gowan on the list because he is not the LEAD singer of Styx. Even though Dennis sang a majority of Styx hits, even he is not the LEAD singer. But a better case can be made for Dennis than can Gowan. Now if you want to debate vocal talent......

Other groups that have changed lead singers and still sounded great:

Boston-Brad Delp/Fran Cosmo and now BOTH of them.
Bad Company-Paul Rodgers/Brian Howe
Asia-John Wetton/John Payne
Chicago-Peter Cetera/Jason Scheff
Journey-Steve Perry/Steve Augeri (and others)
Petra-Greg X. Volz/John Schlitt (more obscure, I know)
Survivor-Jim Peterick/Jimi Jamison (I didn't even notice the change)

Scott

[ek88]

Scott:

I'm not very familiar with Boston, Asia, or Petra, but I agree with you on the others. I had forgotten all about them! BadCo certainly had a good second run in the late 80's, and Survivor only got bigger after the addition of Jimi. However, I think it might've been Dave Bickler who originally sang for Survivor. Any fans out there know for sure? Chicago also never missed a beat after Cetera, if I remember right. I really haven't heard any of Journey's stuff with Augeri, so I'm neutral there. How about Rainbow? Didn't they have a revolving door at lead singer for awhile? Guess I don't know much about them.

As I read your Styx remark, once again I'm reminded of the interesting dynamic they had back in the day: two absolutely tremendous vocalists, and an adequate third one sharing lead vocals. Very few bands can brag of two vocalists as strong as Tommy and Dennis. Night Ranger is the only band that immediately comes to mind as having an equally talented pair (IMO). Any other obvious ones I'm missing? How about Paul Stanley and Gene Simmons? NOT!!!! (no offense, KISS fans)!

[BourgeoisPig69]

What about Rainbow with Dio then Bonnett then Joe LynnTurner?
Foreigner rocked with Johnny Edwards for one album/tour.
Black Sabbath made awesome post-Ozzy albums with Dio, Ian Gillan, Glenn Hughes and especially Tony Martin. (Plus, Ray Gillen did a tour and an album though his vox were replaced by Martin and Rob Halford did 2 amazing shows).
Deep Purple prospered with the dual vocals of Hughes/Coverdale.
Kansas had several hits with John Elefante.
Judas Priest were OK with Ripper.
Maiden became metal god with Dickinson after Di'Anno was sacked and made 2 respectable albums with Blaze Bayley.
Marillion lived on to this day with Steve Hogarth after Fish which everyone thought could never work (replacing Fish that is).
Uriah Heep sacked David Byron but made some great (and crappy) music with John Lawton and 3 killer albums with Pete Goalby not to mention that Bernie Shaw (an amazing talent) is the longest tenured Heep vocalist now!
Ok,
How are those examples?
Love,
Da Pig

[Monker]

Ek,

I would not put Gowan on the list because he is not the LEAD singer of Styx. Even though Dennis sang a majority of Styx hits, even he is not the LEAD singer. But a better case can be made for Dennis than can Gowan. Now if you want to debate vocal talent......

Other groups that have changed lead singers and still sounded great:

Boston-Brad Delp/Fran Cosmo and now BOTH of them.
Bad Company-Paul Rodgers/Brian Howe

I agree with those two.

Asia-John Wetton/John Payne

I absolutely disagree with this...Asia were falling apart from the time that Steve Howe left after the second album. By the time John Payne came on board the band had no chance of achieving the success of their first two albums...even with Steve Howe making a guest appearence on Aqua.

Chicago-Peter Cetera/Jason Scheff

I would agree here too.

Journey-Steve Perry/Steve Augeri (and others)

I think Journey would be classified the same as Styx.

Survivor-Jim Peterick/Jimi Jamison (I didn't even notice the change)

Huh? I didn't notice that change either since it was David Bickler who Jimi Jamison replaced...and then Bickler formed a second version of Surivor, and he was eventualy replaced again by Jamison.

[Ash]

Van Halen: Sammy Hagar for David Lee Roth
AC/DC: Brian Johnson for Bon Scott
Helloween : Michael Kiske for Kai Hansen (Hansen remained with the band but no longer handled lead vocals)
Genesis: Phil Collins for Peter Gabriel

Few notes:

Bon Scott died..... it would have been difficult NOT to replace him And that is why ACDC's next album was "back in black" as a tribute. A way of saying "Yes, we're moving on, but we know what we're missing".

Helloween.... I'm SHOCKED to see this one in here. I was a huge helloween fan. Kiske was hired by the band to do vocals and took Helloween from a borderline Death-Metal act to sounding nearly like Queensryche. Listening back to Keeper of the Seven Keys I and II, I'd have to say it worked in some places, but on some songs you can tell he struggled. Chameleon was their best Kiske era writing. They actually fired Hansen after the "Seven Keys II" album and replaced him with Rowland Gropow and the wheels started coming off. "Pink Bubbles Go Ape" was forgettable, but as I said - Chameleon was pretty good (an opinion that I pretty much share with nobody). Then they fired Kiske and the drummer (the drummer which then committed suicide) and went back to arena-sounding-heavy-metal. I've always wanted to check out "Gamma Ray". Helloween's been pretty much forgotten since Kiske left. Kiske is now in another band called supared (http://www.supared.de/) after one decent and one lousy solo record.

Genesis never replace Peter tho... they "kept it in the family"... I think that helped them with fan acceptance.

Styx has said "fuck dennis, we're going to replace him and move one... oh and by the way, Dennis sucked and this new guy is the fucking best ever... at least until we replace him and then he'll suck and the new guy will be part of the best lineup ever"... gimme a break

[classicstyxfan]

Styx has said "fuck dennis, we're going to replace him and move one... oh and by the way, Dennis sucked and this new guy is the fucking best ever... at least until we replace him and then he'll suck and the new guy will be part of the best lineup ever"...gimme a break !


Ash, You nailed it with this comment ![/quote]

[Ash]

Petra-Greg X. Volz/John Schlitt (more obscure, I know)

you sure you wanna go there? Petra sure missed Volz's song writing. Volz wrote most of Petra's really big songs early-on (big for a Christian rock band anyway). A lot of Christian rock fans lost faith in Petra when Volz left/got fired/retired/whoever you believe.

Beat the System is a GREAT record for being 80s metal/hair rock. Personally, I love the song "Computer Brains"... nice 80s geek rock/metal.

Little known fact: I worked for StarSong in the mid 1990s when I first moved to Nashville (GO TITANS). When StarSong was sold to EMI, I helped them clear out the tape vault. I personally handled all the master tapes for Petra. "Beat The System" was codenamed "Beat Your Sister" in the vault.... all references to Beat The System were made as "Beat Your Sister".... we got a pretty good laugh outta that.

[Ash]

Huh? I didn't notice that change either since it was David Bickler who Jimi Jamison replaced...and then Bickler formed a second version of Surivor, and he was eventualy replaced again by Jamison.

Yeah... I was a bit confuzzled by that as well. Hell, I couldn't tell the difference between Eye of the Tiger and I Can't Hold Back vocally. Of course, I wasn't a DIE HARD fan of Survivor either. I owned "Vital Signs" and had the "Eye Of The Tiger" single..... it was only a few years ago that I learned two different guys sang the songs.


In terms of Kansas.... the Elefante era of Kansas was pretty much forgettable.... "Play The Game Tonight" wasn't even written by the guys in Kansas (they re-wrote the lyric because it was originally called "Stay With Me Tonight" and Livgren refused to play the song because of the chorus was "Stay with me tonight. I don't care if it's wrong or right").... Good songs they had under Elefante were Fight Fire With Fire, Mainstream, Perfect Lover (obscure and hard to find these days), Windows, Play On, End of the Age and Crossfire. Absolute suck songs: Andi, Everybody's My Friend (nice music, crap lyric), Chasing Shadows. Elefante had another band that was pretty good called Mastedon. Their first record "It's A Jungle Out There" is really good petra-style rock. Of course, Elefante PRODUCED petra, so what would you expect.


Boston.... talk about wasted potential. Boston hasn't been the same since Third Stage. I dunno what Sholz problem is.... but "Walk On" was forgettable except for the first track and I never bothered with Corporate America. Singers were never the problem (Brad Delp was also great in RTZ), the ego of the guitar player was (where have we heard this before?).


I really enjoyed Brian Howe for Bad Company. Speaking of which - did you ever notice how "Holy Water" sounds like Tommy Shaw's "Ambition"? Thats because they were produced by the same guy (Terry Thomas)... Holy Water was great... Ambition seemed like a knock off, even though Ambition came first. Listen to the song structure and the way the backing/harmony vocals are done on both albums. Brian Howe got a bad rap from the rest of the guys in Bad Company. He did a great job filling some VERY big shoes and all they did was shit on him. I really felt bad for him. The fans even seemed to like him. Saw them twice on the road with Damn Yankees.

[jimmy19029]

However, I think it might've been Dave Bickler who originally sang for Survivor. Any fans out there know for sure?


You are correct. Though Jim Peterik sang lead on a tune on their debut it was Dave Bickler that was the main lead singer/frontman in Survivor from 1978-1984. Jimi Jamison then replaced him till the band broke up in 1989 and he went solo. Survivor reformed with Dave again 1993-2000 but now Jimi's back.

[swwskj]

Ok Ok,

My mistake as far as Peterik NOT being the singer, but I still think you know where I was going.

A couple of responses though.

1. I almost had the Johnny Edwards/Lou Gramm combo in there too, but I figured I was the only person who bought 'Unusual Heat'.

2. The Asia situation depends upon how you look at it. First of all they had a great album 'Astra' with all originals (sans Howe, who was their guitarist) after Howe was more or less kicked out by Wetton. They had basically a 7 year hiatus and returned with the 'Aqua' album featuring new vocalist John Payne. They have had three albums since (Aria, Arena & Aura) with a new one due out in a week (Silent Nation). Whether you consider them still as good depends upon your taste, but Payne is a great vocalist.

3. As far as Petra is concerned, I've heard the argument that they miss Greg X. Volz's writing. Personally I just don't buy that. Schlitt's albums have been received better, have sold better and to me anyway, sound better. When fans are polled for their favorite line-up, Schlitt always wins for vocalist. Don't get me wrong, I like the Volz stuff too. It's too bad the Elefante Bros. didn't get to produce 'Not of this World'. That would have been great.

Now for my next trick watch how I explain that Van Halen sounded better after Sammy Hagar replaced Michael Anthony.

Scott

[BourgeoisPig69]

Whether you believe me or not (and I don't care because I am Bourgeois Pig), I have met (and even had dinner) with John Payne and Geoff Downes and interviewed Steve Howe. Payne is a great guy and a fantastic singer. Asia have made some amazing music with him (and the forthcoming Silent Nation is outstanding). It's not his fault the industry destroyed itself and ruined things for all veteran acts.
Aqua actually did fairly well in 1992, though by Asia's standards it was only a shadow of past sales. That tour was great. It was downhill until 2000.
I asked John about how frustrating it is to make a beautiful song like "Ready To Go Home" from Aura and have nobody hear it. He had a look of relief in his eyes as he told me that as long as people like me and the other fans appreciate the music, that that's really what matters.
I told him that I understand that but that I get frustrated that nobody hears this music-I told him I've played the song for tons of people and that everyone liked it but most didn't even know Asia were still in existence. He pointed to bad management in the 90s and poor marketing by small labels and lack of touring as to why. Makes sense. He also said he doesn't know what the hell John Wetton's problem with him is other than he thought Asia would disband after he left in 1991 (wrong Mr . Wetton!).
And Steve had plenty to say about Astra, including the hilarious fact that after he was told by Wetton "I can no longer work with you" just a few weeks into the sessions for that record, that later on they called him and asked if he'd play guitar on the songs. He heard the material and decided not to but had a good laugh that Wetton never asked him, but that the others had. I will agree that Astra is an awesome album and Mandy Meyer did a nice job.
Anyway, I love Asia so there.
P.S.
Gowan rules.

[jimmy19029]

I liked Johnny Edwards a great deal and thought Unusual Heat was a fine album.

It took me awhile to warm up to John Payne in Asia however. I think he sounds best on their more recent releases like Arena and Aura. Never thought he sounded as good as Wetton performing the 80s era stuff in concert though.

[Monker]

Whether you believe me or not (and I don't care because I am Bourgeois Pig)

and, I am Monker, hear me oink! :0) (pignosed smilie)

I have met (and even had dinner) with John Payne and Geoff Downes and interviewed Steve Howe. Payne is a great guy and a fantastic singer. Asia have made some amazing music with him (and the forthcoming Silent Nation is outstanding). It's not his fault the industry destroyed itself and ruined things for all veteran acts.

I don't know any of them personaly, I don't think that matters much anyways, and I do agree that John Payne has a great voice. But, Asia will never be at the same level they were with the original lineup.

I 'like' Aqua. But, it sounded more like Journey then Asia. It seemed very much like it could have been a Geoff Downes solo album.

The same goes for Astra...I like a few of the songs, but over all it seemed like a very average album to me...almost like a John Wetton solo album.

The first two Asia albums were classic. I even like the "Live - Mokba" album (or whatever that Russia concert is called). I even have the video. But, Asia will never be at that level again without Wetton and Howe. It is like Styx without Tommy AND Dennis, or Journey without Schon AND Perry.

As for Payne's comments about recording music for a smaller audience...I agree with him. But, they are at the level of someone like Kevin Chalfant, not at the level of Styx, or Journey, or VH, or Bad Company, or any of these other bands that are in this thread. I doubt that management, promotion, and touring is going to make up for such a radical change in sound from the band.

And, hey, I'm not saying Asia isn't a good band. I should probably buy Aura too, since I love Geoff Downes keyboards. I am just saying they took a giant step down when Wetton and Howe left the band.

[styxfanNH]

In regards to Asia, It is what the combination of talents the origanal members had that made it such a great band. As original members left, it gave up a little more of what made it great. (Hmmm sounds familiar)

[swwskj]

Monker,

If you liked Arena, you'll love Aura. Instead of trying to be the same Asia they were with Wetton, they decided to write music better suited for John Payne. The line-up(s) for Aura vary from song to song but there is a cohesive feel to the album. And I agree that they will NEVER sell the way they used to, but most bands of their ilk won't either.

Scott

[bugsymalone]

Good points made by all here.
I believe this topic is so subjective, though.

Do you believe a band is only a band in its original, pure form?
Does the lead singer impart a real personality to the band? Is he/she a signature voice in the band?
Are you a fan of the music only and don’t care who is playing it under the name of the band that originally made that music?

I guess I fall into more of the purist category. So many times a signature voice simply cannot be replaced. The sound of the band becomes immediately altered. I will always feel the “real” Van Halen is the group with David Lee Roth for example.

I guess everyone knows how I feel about Styx in this regard. Despite having three lead singers, the band had a sound that was unique with Dennis DeYoung in it and now, I feel, has lost a large piece of that great quality his voice brought to the mix.

As to signature voices. Well, I could not imagine Queen with a “replacement” lead singer. Ditto many, MANY other bands with a singular singer/performer fronting the band.

So put me down in the category of not really being much of a fan of groups that change lead singers who really defined the band in the first place.

Bugsy

[ek88]

This topic really brings home the reality of how many bands struggle to keep their lineup intact. I didn't even realize that a lot of these bands went through the amount of personnel changes described here. Like Monker, I didn't initially notice the change in Survivor and hard-core Kansas fans would probably be shocked that I only found out recently about this Elefante guy

I really enjoyed Brian Howe for Bad Company. . . . . The fans even seemed to like him.

Not a huge BadCo fan, so I could go see them with either Rodgers or Howe, but I did enjoy the Howe stuff, that's for sure. About the fans . . . I saw BadCo a couple of years ago with Styx and ran into a BadCo fan in the men's room who was absolutely irate (and a little drunk) that Rodgers was handling the lead vocals at the show. I suppose he should've paid a little more attention to the promos, but that's got to be a downer to pay for a show expecting one thing and getting another. Makes you wonder how many Styx fans have gone through the same thing when the band starts into Grand Illusion, Lady, etc. At least with Styx, you still get some of the Shaw and Young tunes. I doubt the current incarnation of BadCo even touches the Howe stuff.

Ash, good point about Bon Scott. Concerning Helloween, I quit listening to them after Keeper Part 2, but I've heard that their most recent works are a throwback to their old sound, despite a drastically changed lineup. What have you heard? Also good point about Genesis, I had forgotten that little detail.

BP69, very true about Iron Maiden, they exploded after Dickinson came on board! [/quote]

[styxfanNH]

I have to think that part of the issue may be that for the first time we are seeing bands, at least by name, that have been around for this long and have some type of nucleus to the band and band line-up that brought them success. As members die off or leave the band for one reason or another, if the band chooses to move on - it is sure to be different. You then have 2 choices, to accept the band going forward or not.

I know as fans we get attached to the personalities and writing styles of various members of any bands. But that doesn't mean the other members are pieces of poop. For me, I am a firm believer that any song is really a product of all the members. Although one member may have penned the initial rough version of the song, each member contributes in some way to the final version and they have as much right to play the songs that are a part of their personal careers. As a fan, I know its not the same - its just different.

I think you could take this thread and ask yourself, how many bands from this era still have their "classic line-up" intact or are even around at all? The reality is its not many.

[jimmy19029]

The guy was mad that Paul Rodgers was back? Wow! He must really have been a Howe fan. I liked Brian Howe as a singer but thought it was a little misleading calling the band Bad Company(originally they didn't want to do that, but the record company insisted) When I saw them in 1987, Brian sounded best on the new material but I didn't like his restyling of the few Bad Co hits in the set. When I saw them again in 1993, he'd lowed the key on the hits back to their original and was singing them more like Rodgers. Then he left the following year and the band got Robert Hart who was a deadringer voicewise for Rodgers. I was happy to see the original band regroup in 1998-1999. Sorry it didn't last but I'm glad Rodgers is still singer as he was a key element to their sound. Not taking away anything from Howe. I'd like to see him solo when he comes around here. It can be a real THANKLESS role replacing a well known lead singer.


How about Toto? They really went through their share of lead singer nightmares. First Bobby Kimball, then Fergie Frederiksen, then Joseph Williams, then Jean Michel Byron, then just guitarist Luke helped out by the back up singers, then Williams and Kimball again, now just Kimball.

[ek88]

The guy was mad that Paul Rodgers was back? Wow! He must really have been a Howe fan.

Yeah, I remember being quite startled, to tell the truth.

When I saw them in 1987, Brian sounded best on the new material but I didn't like his restyling of the few Bad Co hits in the set.

I agree. I liked the new material a lot, but didn't care for him singing the oldies (although I didn't see them, I bought the live album that came out in the early 90s). Honestly, I'd go see them with either singer, IF they only stuck to their own stuff.

[gr8dane]

Well.
I was dragged to see the Doors 21st century,with Ian Ashbury from the Cult ,as singer.Jim was not available ,but I must say Ian was a very good fit.OK better than good,,,Brilliant.Now I never saw Doors with Jim,but as a 'remember then/them live,this was 2 1/2 hours of solid music.Ray was great and Robbie was absolutely amazing.No ,,,they did not play 'She sells sanctuary' or 'Love removal machine'.I was not the only one there,,,but maybe another 8000 or so.A great evening indeed.

[Adam]

I think JY's voice is sounding worse these days. Lawrence is okay, but a bit like he tokes on "helium".

I've often wondered what the vocal blend of DeYoung, Shaw and Burtnik would sound like. That's never happened, right? I thought Glen blended very well with both Tommy and Dennis.

[classicstyxfan]

JY has always done his lead vocals in a pseudo shout.....to lend a tough sounding quality to them, and after 30 years of doing so, It's catching up with him....especially the last 5 years of nearly non-stop touring.

This becomes apparent comparing his vocals on Cyclorama to the lead vocals he did in the 70's and Early 80's. Frankly, I think it's quite remarkable he has anything left in the tank at all vocally.

I'm sure if his vocal cords were medically examined, they would find nodes and scar tissue all over them.

As for Burtnik/Shaw/DeYoung vocal harmonies.....would be interesting, though I'm not sure G.B. has the range to hit the really high notes.

[swwskj]

Glen and Dennis actually harmonized on the EOTC song "All in a Day's Work." I'm surprised you all forgot that one. Maybe it's my bias, but I think it sounds better than the harmony on "Yes I Can."

Scott

[Guest]

i think Yes I Can sounds too girly, but thats just me, not to offend anyone who likes it. But it did remind me of Backstreet boys and O Town.

[yogi]

Good 'Assembly Line'.

Lawrence toking on the helium is pretty funny.