PARADISE LOST

[yogi]

I know for some the songs Babe & First Time pushed Styx from a rock act to a pop group. While they gained millions of fans across the globe they lost some real hard core fans from their previous albums.

For others Kilroy Was Here was the worst thing the band could of done. Again they gained some fans, but probably at that time lost more than they gained.

As for me, where Styx kind of lost me was on their only #1 album Paradise Theatre. For me it was the first time on an A&M recorded Styx album where if I could get to the needle I would skip over the songs Nothing Ever Goes As Planned, and Lonely People. I really didnt care for She Cares either but it wasnt a skip over song.

Do any of you feel the same? For some reason when they added the horns I started to drift a little from the sound of DDY. I know they added the horns for I'm Ok but it wasnt the same type of song.

I did really like the album, but to me thats whenn the DDY led Styx sound changed for the first time.

[DarrenUK]

I like the song Lonely People and the whole Paradise Theater concept (remember the lazer etched disc ?)
To me Kilroy was a huge dissapointment apart from Double Life and Just Get Through This Night. I hated the Caught In The Act live CD it sounded awful and was produced with no bass.
And I thought the Roboto, Greasy Chicken, Rightious things its over movie sucked. I think the robotos error light should of flashed as soon as they started making that monstosity. So it was the Kilroy era that dissapointed me the most and BNW was a comeback CD that should of been great but was lame and disjointed.
Hey but there still along with Dare the best band ever ......

[Ash]

Lonely People and Nothing Ever Goes As Planned are brilliant songs lyrically. I can understand why you don't like them, but I have to say they've seen a LOT of play time on iTunes the last 2 weeks. They are just incredibly well written lyrical songs.

[sadie65]

I love Paradise Theater, and I really like Kilroy. I think the problem that the fans have/had is that Kilroy was such a departure from what they were looking for. And for ME only, that's why I liked it. I am someone who likes risk and change. I'm all for the comfort of a certain sound, but I think if a band stays with the same sound/style they stagnate.Again, for me only.

I think the horn addition was a nice layer to add.

Peace,

Sadie

[yogi]

I REALLY disliked the Kilroy album, BUT I thought the concept and the actual Concert were brilliant.

As for the lyrics in Lonely People,& Nothing Ever Goes As Planned, they are tremendous, and the songs do fit the concept of the album. Still I didnt like when Styx felt they needed to add the horns. It started moving their sound in a direction I didnt like.

[piecesofeight]

As for me, where Styx kind of lost me was on their only #1 album Paradise Theatre. For me it was the first time on an A&M recorded Styx album where if I could get to the needle I would skip over the songs Nothing Ever Goes As Planned, and Lonely People. I really didnt care for She Cares either but it wasnt a skip over song.

Do any of you feel the same? For some reason when they added the horns I started to drift a little from the sound of DDY. I know they added the horns for I'm Ok but it wasnt the same type of song.

I did really like the album, but to me thats whenn the DDY led Styx sound changed for the first time.

I have to basically agree with you. I remember turning on MTV, when MTV first came out, and seeing all those videos for Paradise Theatre and the song Babe. I thought, where it the heck did those 'Grand Illusion' guys go?
May have even started a bit with Cornerstone and just a speck with 'Pieces Of Eight.'
Grand Illusion is still the only album, from anyone that I can listen to all the way through over and over.

[bugsymalone]

Though Paradise Theater is not my favorite Styx album (Equinox is), it is a very well produced, sophisticated album, and, yes, a departure for them. It has some really great music on it and I don't find that I skip over a thing when listening to it.

Like Sadie, I liked that Dennis was not content with grinding out the same music collections over and over. Kilroy Was Here was a great adventure and a HUGE risk. Many thought it failed. Many thought it was a success.
I thought it had the two best songs Tommy and JY ever wrote, and had that kinetic, synth driven energy that was so different from earlier albums. It was just a little too far afield for many to appreciate.

What might have been had the band only paused after Kilroy instead of breaking up no one knows.
Music was changing. The industry was changing. And all of the band members were maturing and changing too. A "what might have been" that just sort of hangs out there.

Bugsy

[BlackWall]

I love "Paradise Theatre".. Honestly, I think it was the best moment for Styx. Was it a departure? Yes, but that had already started with "Cornerstone". I honestly feel the band changed the most between "PO8" & "Cornerstone"; the art/rock feel was all but lost with "Cornerstone"(save for maybe "Love In The Midnight")..

As far as not digging "Nothing Ever Goes As Planned" or "Lonely People", I love them both, especially "Nothing Ever", but I can also understand being put off by the different approach musically, but check out "Why Me", this wasn't the first time Dennis went in this direction. Honestly, I really respect what Dennis stated in the BTM, as far not putting limits on creativity.

I think "Paradise Theatre" worked so well because, while there was a ballad, and some more pop oriented songs, there was a nice balance of everything; we still had something like "Snowblind"; we also had "Half Penny, Two Penny", and a song that touched on classic rock & roll, "Rockin' The Paradise". The theme of the album was also pretty interesting, and I think a lot of people related to the desparation that was expressed, on a couple of different levels. No, I don't mean the fact that the theatre was being closed down, but the loss, the fact that nothing stays the same, and we really don't have a whole lot of control over what goes on around us, and the way that things change, and not always(or usually) for the better.

[classicstyxfan]

I must be older than some of you...I thought it started downhill with Cornerstone, and the downward momentum continued with Paradise Theatre and Kilroy.

It's not that any of these were terrible, there were SOME good songs on each of these Albums......they just didn't match the Brilliance of the Equinox- Pieces of Eight era.

IMO, Styx II is a better album than any of the 3 I mention above. I'd also agree wqith the opinion that Cyclorama is their best effort since Pieces of Eight, an opinion I've read here before.

[Abitaman]

Paradise T. is my 2nd favorite cd by Styx, the Grand Ill. being first. Kilroy was big let down. Mr Roboto was awesome, and a great first single, Don't Let it End was good too, but a little too much like Babe to me. Babe was a great song, but I thought Don't.... was copying it. Just Get Thru This Night is a great song, but could have done with out the Kilroy mumbo jumbo at the beginning. HAven't We Been..... is another good song, but try singing it....Rest of the cd was very weak. Heavy Metal Poisonong is one of the BIGGEST let downs evey, song is nothing like the title would lead you to believe.
But on the A&M years, Kilroy was not as bad as Crystal Ball, but not as good as Edge of the Century.-ERIC

[Ash]

I was having lunch with some colleagues yesterday and we started talking about music and bands and such and we got around to Styx and the consensus of the table was that Paradise Theatre was by far their best work. I don't happen to really agree with that per se, but I can see why people would think that. Next to Kilroy's Mr. Roboto, I think Paradise Theatre is their most memorable album from start to finish. It had all the elements of classic and progressive rock at the time. It's my opinion only that people who can't accept these different sides of a band or artist are really doing themselves a disservice. I mean - think about it - do you REALLY want them to keep re-recording Pieces of Eight or Grand Illusion over and over and over again or do you want them to try new things?

The bands that made a difference are the ones that steped out on that ledge and took a chance to do something nobody else was doing. Frankly, I listen to Paradise Theatre much more than I do Pieces of Eight or any other earlier styx-era record.

I just thought it was interesting that TO A PERSON when we went around the table and Styx came up all anyone did was talk about how much of a masterpiece of an album Paradise Theater was. And these aren't just random folks, these are entertainment writers and newspaper editors in Nashville. Not that their opinions are any more important than ours, but I'm just trying to make a point here with regard to the popularity of Styx music.

Anyway, this one writer I was with might take me to the Styx show at the Ryman Auditorium in early March... I have to see if I can make it. I'm going to Atlanta to see Slipknot the week after that so I have to make sure I have all my family commitments caught up.

I may be beginning to warm up to Cyclorama - although I just can't really take Larry's voice. It's almost scary, but if the guys could produce a new record where it was just Tommy and JY doing vocal bits, I would probably be more open minded to it. "Kiss Your Ass Goodbye" is really brilliant. Too bad that guy isn't in the band anymore :-\ They lost some real talent at songwriter. I think I'm going to go pick up "Welcome to Hollywood".

[Adam]

DEFINITELY pick up Welcome To Hollywood. It's certainly much better than the past 3 Styx studio albums.

I agree, too bad they lost Glen. My take is that there just wasn't enough room in the band for him - that AND he writes better than the others, AND he sings as good as the others (better than Shaw?) and even though he wasn't allowed the position to front the band.

But his album is very very good.

[sadie65]

I think it truly depends on what you're looking for. Some people want consistency. Sort of like wanting Jim Carrey to only make Ace Ventura movies, or outrageous comedies.

When a band starts out they have a certain sound. Some never go past that original sound because for them it works.

I think in the case of Styx, their Wooden Nickel material doesn't sound much at all like their A & M years. And so on and so forth.

I like when entertainers go beyond what they are known for. Robin Williams is a great dramatic actor. How sad it would be if he only limited himself to comedy.

I think the same thing about Styx. For me, complacency is when it gets boring.

Carry on.

Sadie

[ek88]

I mean - think about it - do you REALLY want them to keep re-recording Pieces of Eight or Grand Illusion over and over and over again or do you want them to try new things?

No, and that's one reason I've soured a bit on Dennis' songwriting lately, because to me it has been the same thing over and over and over again, ever since Cornerstone (with the exception of a track here or there). I like songs like Come Sail Away, Pieces Of Eight, Ballerina, and Lorelei. While I wouldn't want carbon copies of those, I'd prefer that his music still have the punch of old.

Lonely People and Nothing Ever Goes As Planned are brilliant songs lyrically.

I agree. I've always been quite fond of the lyrics of these two songs.

IMO, Styx II is a better album than any of the 3 I mention above. I'd also agree wqith the opinion that Cyclorama is their best effort since Pieces of Eight, an opinion I've read here before.

I also like Styx II and in some ways, I think it's better than Cornerstone and Paradise Theatre. I know that it's better than Kilroy I also agree with you on Cyclorama. Part of the reason I like it so much is that it is different yet true to a musical style that I prefer. Obviously, it's not for everybody, and that's fine.

[Ash]

No, and that's one reason I've soured a bit on Dennis' songwriting lately, because to me it has been the same thing over and over and over again, ever since Cornerstone (with the exception of a track here or there). I like songs like Come Sail Away, Pieces Of Eight, Ballerina, and Lorelei. While I wouldn't want carbon copies of those, I'd prefer that his music still have the punch of old.

I will concede that you have made a great point in terms of Dennis. I think Dennis may have isolated himself from a songwriting perspective. All good writers benefit from the influence of contemporaries - and perhaps Dennis is missing that. I think it would be great if he would just work to produce the works of others - which could serve as an influence unto itself. I do really like Dennis' new songs on the live album he released and I think Hello God is a bit of a departure in terms of subject matter and song style - but the others have a "more of the same" feel.

Tommy, to his credit, has worked with other song writers and producers and it has really made him a better songwriter. I know everyone talks about Pieces of Eight and Renegade, but Tommy's best songs I think are on his Seven Deadly Zens records. I am, however, glad that he's not in Damn Yankees because I think there is not enough room for stylistic experimentation. Ted Nugent (god bless him) is a TERRIFIC example of a songwriter who hasn't done anything new for 20 years. He may have a new record, but it's just the continuation of things he's done his whole career. The first DY album was a real breath of fresh air for him being it was bluesier... but "Don't Tread" should have been called "Re-Tread" because it was basically a rehashing of the original DY album, only not as good. I can't even really listen to Don't Tread anymore.

[sadie65]

No, and that's one reason I've soured a bit on Dennis' songwriting lately, because to me it has been the same thing over and over and over again, ever since Cornerstone (with the exception of a track here or there). I like songs like Come Sail Away, Pieces Of Eight, Ballerina, and Lorelei. While I wouldn't want carbon copies of those, I'd prefer that his music still have the punch of old.

I will concede that you have made a great point in terms of Dennis. I think Dennis may have isolated himself from a songwriting perspective. All good writers benefit from the influence of contemporaries - and perhaps Dennis is missing that. I think it would be great if he would just work to produce the works of others - which could serve as an influence unto itself. I do really like Dennis' new songs on the live album he released and I think Hello God is a bit of a departure in terms of subject matter and song style - but the others have a "more of the same" feel.

Tommy, to his credit, has worked with other song writers and producers and it has really made him a better songwriter. I know everyone talks about Pieces of Eight and Renegade, but Tommy's best songs I think are on his Seven Deadly Zens records. I am, however, glad that he's not in Damn Yankees because I think there is not enough room for stylistic experimentation. Ted Nugent (god bless him) is a TERRIFIC example of a songwriter who hasn't done anything new for 20 years. He may have a new record, but it's just the continuation of things he's done his whole career. The first DY album was a real breath of fresh air for him being it was bluesier... but "Don't Tread" should have been called "Re-Tread" because it was basically a rehashing of the original DY album, only not as good. I can't even really listen to Don't Tread anymore.

Now I kind of agree that Dennis is leaning too much in the same direction. But I find Hello God to be Show Me The Way updated. Goodnight My Love, while quite nice, is no stretch. I think his best new work is My God off the cd. I think his songs on BNW were much more boundary stretching for him. Some good, some considered not so good.

I think it would be good if Dennis could produce others, however, I somehow don't see it happening.

Now, I like TS as a songwriter, and I do think 7 Deadly Zens is his best solo work but I came away from that cd feeling like he hadn't stretched his song writing. Just me, no flames at all meant by it.

Sadie

[SuiteMadameBlue]

I wish that I could add to this thread, but I'm just so happy with all the Styx albums (Pre-1999).

Every album has a special meaning to me in my life, same with most of the songs.

Paradise Theatre was the first album that I bought by myself with my hard earned money

I just love the variety of music with every album and every song.

Today, my favorite Styx album is "Grand Illusion".

I'm just so happy

[Ash]

Now I kind of agree that Dennis is leaning too much in the same direction. But I find Hello God to be Show Me The Way updated. Goodnight My Love, while quite nice, is no stretch. I think his best new work is My God off the cd. I think his songs on BNW were much more boundary stretching for him. Some good, some considered not so good.

A very good point. I really enjoy <b>Great Expectations</b> and think that is better than anything he did on Edge of the Century frankly. I also liked While There's Still Time, but I didn't listen to it as much since I had the demo of it for several years before it was released. "Paradise" is a just so good because it's the QUINTESSENTIAL Styx/DDY Rock Power Ballad... I actually think that song is the best Styx power ballad ever done by any of the Styx gang together, solo, or in Damn Yankees.

I also enjoyed Hip-Hopcracy... but it's just not one of those songs you can listen to over and over and over and over again like you can with some others.

I really, really want to see Dennis..... I don't know what I'm gonna do if it doesn't happen this year tho.... I really wish he would come back to Nashville... Suite can you make that happen please?

[SuiteMadameBlue]

Ash, the dates are slowly coming in. I know there is talk of another one in the Midwest and in the South, I think North of you, but I don't know how many miles.

I know in the summer there will some with just the band, I'm guessing outdoor festivals.

No offense, but I hope he comes back to Summerfest. I had a great time waiting 7 hours in the rain - LOL It was worth it - especially seeing the bands before him. I think a couple of the peeps on here were there

Once I find out anything or if it's listed on his website, I'll post it here right away

[Ash]

Is there anything I can do? I mean.. I'll lobby whomever. I have some connections... he just needs to do Nashville again.

[Abitaman]

I always thought Dennis was the best sonwriter in Styx, but here lately I have been leaning toward Tommy. Tommy has improved over the years, and Dennis seems to be stuck in a ballad rut. He needs to throw some ROCK in there and mix it up. Hello God, and Goodbye Roseland are masterful, but we can only take so many ballad. My God Can Beat Up Your God, was a good attempt, but it's lacking!
My favorite Tommy cd was Ambition.-ERIC

[ek88]

Ted Nugent (god bless him) is a TERRIFIC example of a songwriter who hasn't done anything new for 20 years. He may have a new record, but it's just the continuation of things he's done his whole career. The first DY album was a real breath of fresh air for him being it was bluesier... but "Don't Tread" should have been called "Re-Tread" because it was basically a rehashing of the original DY album, only not as good. I can't even really listen to Don't Tread anymore.

Man, you hit the nail on the head with old Ted! And I agree about Don't Tread. I liked that album a lot more back in 93 than I do now.

Today, my favorite Styx album is "Grand Illusion".

For me, it's been Crystal Ball and Equinox lately

As for me, where Styx kind of lost me was on their only #1 album Paradise Theatre.

While it's not my favorite, I think I can objectively understand why it had the success it did. It had probably more universal appeal than any other Styx album. As Ash alluded to earlier, there was a little bit of something for everybody on it. Personal preference aside, it would get my vote for best all-around album.

[ek88]

By the way, this is a great thread. I, for one, am really enjoying the dialogue here.

[DeeJaySTYX]

Yogi wrote;

As for me, where Styx kind of lost me was on their only #1 album Paradise Theatre. For me it was the first time on an A&M recorded Styx album where if I could get to the needle I would skip over the songs Nothing Ever Goes As Planned, and Lonely People. I really didnt care for She Cares either but it wasnt a skip over song.

Paradise Theatre is one of my favorite Styx albums because it combines the elements of commercial music without losing any of its rock edge style...The album is very consistant with its sound quality and for me there are no skip overs songs on it....

For some reason when they added the horns I started to drift a little from the sound of DDY. I know they added the horns for I'm Ok but it wasnt the same type of song.

The horn section was one of the added elements in some songs which gave the band a early Chicago type sound to it, a jazz type of rock....
That type of sound was first evident on the song "Why Me" off of Cornerstone....

Darren wrote;

I like the song Lonely People and the whole Paradise Theater concept (remember the lazer etched disc ?)

As do I, Those were the days....

And I thought the Roboto, Greasy Chicken, Rightious things its over movie sucked.

Actually( I know Darren has signed off but I hope he reads this when he looks in on us) I thought the movie wasn't all bad;

"Hey Roboto, Your Mother Was A Toyota!!!!! I aint got no rhythm, Huh, I aint got no rhythm"....

"Riot In The Eating Area, Gas Please" (That was funny)....

Seriously, the Dr. Righteous Fried Chicken represented corporate and political take over and the Robotos as prison guards represented a time where some people feared that Robotic technology and automation were to replace people in the work force.....

There were some stupid points like "what not to do to your Roboto"....Kicking a roboto in the lug-nuts was kind of stupid(even though Roboto's response was funny)...
.

To me Kilroy was a huge dissapointment apart from Double Life and Just Get Through This Night. I hated the Caught In The Act live CD it sounded awful and was produced with no bass

Kilroy was definetly a direction change, but I still enjoy the concert when it came to my town and the CD from time to time...I also detected the lack of bass on the live CD....

Well, time for me to stop blabing


DeeJay....

[piecesofeight]

As we know, record sales or rankings don't always equeal that an album is good. Just such as when the 'critics' , dislike something, it's usually fantastic.
Paradise Theatre also did so well because a certain song on a prior album received so much airplay, that it brought SO many to Styx. This song being BABE!
Then, Paradise Theatre came out when MTV was just getting started. Many artist, especially those who were not popular, have made so many remarks over the years how well their record sales would do after their videos were played on MTV. MTV was HUGE for many of these acts.
Then there was our beloved Styxters. When MTV was coming out. so was Paradise Theatre and many songs off of that album were vids in very heavy rotation. I totally believe that MTV played a hand in bringing one to Styx, due to these vids for those songs from PT, if you weren't totally aware who they were. Or at least you said, oh, those are the 'Babe' guys!
Sorry, I'm sick right now so I have plenty of time to just jaw on. YOu get my drift.
Tons of commercial play for this album on MTV, is my point.
Babe too, which led many to Styx, then they purchased their next album.
Boom, bam!
I believe that Styx' video for 'The Best Of Times' was the 6th video played on MTV in the first hour.

[classicstyxfan]

So, Am I dreaming, or is there a dialogue going on here in which many different opinions are being stated, but no one is really ripping on opinions that are different from there own ?

Nice thread !

[Ash]

yeah... it IS very refreshing I really enjoy some of these discussions..

[Adam]

Here Here! The way God intended the internet to be! Hats off, brothers and sisters. We deserve a prize.

I can see the news headline now "WWW Bulletin Bd Discussion Turns Polite, Respectful!"

[bugsymalone]

I think when we stick to the MUSIC as the discussion point, we get a really interesting commentary going.

I have enjoyed everyone's input here.

One bit I might add here is that Dennis has always been a songwriter who writes from his heart. He would see or feel something that influenced him enough to put it to music and write, often, very powerful lyrics about it. (And, a given with his talent, great music as well.)

We all know the awful time he had working on BNW. I think the pain that he felt while this disjointed recording process was going on is quite evident, not just in the lyrics he wrote, and some of their deep cynicism, but also in HOW he sings the songs. I think "Great Expectations" is probably the best example of this.

I do not think you will find a more heartfelt delivery, though, than the beautiful. gospel-tinged "Goodbye Roseland." He captures ALL the emotions that song conveys in his amazing vocals on it.

Brave New World really is two separate albums. There is Dennis, pouring his heart out, and then there is the rest.

Bugsy

[Zan]

"Kiss Your Ass Goodbye" is really brilliant. Too bad that guy isn't in the band anymore :-\ They lost some real talent at songwriter. I think I'm going to go pick up "Welcome to Hollywood".

Run, don't walk! I agree wholeheartedly. You'll love the CD.