Random Thoughts on Classic Styx vs Carrot Styx

[RoyalOakRoadie]

..actually, this is more about any band that changes membership and polarizes its fan base.

I was thinking about how polarizing it is when a band changes a major member, and tried comparing it to a major sports team, a band is after all, a team. Personally I have never ran into a sports fan so rabid over one member of a team that they abandon that team when a member moves on. I didnt hear anyone say "I just cant watch anyone else play guard for the Pacers, I refuse to go see them live anymore" when Reggie retired.

So why is it that way in music with some fans? What is it about a band that makes people so vehement that they may not change certain members? Am I reaching here? or is there a parallel between the difference seeing the Pacers without Reggie makes, compared to the difference that seeing (insert band here) without (insert band member here) makes? To a rabid fan, they can indeed see a difference when watching a game of thier favorite sports team without a key player, as we music fans can hear a difference in our favorite bands without certain key players. Wherein lies the difference?

Hmm, maybe I am trying too hard to rationalize a subjective experience?

Discuss..

[kansas666]

There is a big difference here. Sports teams routinely have a revolving door. Players age and can't play to the level they did previously. Not so with musicians.

[classicstyxfan]

There's also a specified geography with sports teams ( unless they move ) The vast majority of a sports teams fans lives close enough to see the games live, or in the region where their games are regularly shown on Television in their area.

And there are times where trading the favorite player can lead to some very hard feelings......I remember when The Milwaukee Bucks traded Kareen Abdul-Jabbar away I was pretty darned upset for a year or 2....eventually, I got over it. By the way, the franchise never reached that level of excellence again after that trade !

[Monker]

There is a big difference here. Sports teams routinely have a revolving door. Players age and can't play to the level they did previously. Not so with musicians.

The above is simply not always true.

Steve Perry, for example, has aged and simply can not perform to the level he did previously.

Also, the Chicago Bulls kept a core of players around for years and I am certain that when Michael Jordan left they lost a lot of fans.

A person either likes the performance or not. If their ability to like it is so tied to one member, then they are not going to like it no matter who replaces that member. It doesn't matter if it's a sports team or a rock band.

[NealIsGod]

This reminds me of a Seinfeld bit where he said you don't really root for players, you root for a uniform. You can hate a guy when he's wearing another team's uniform, but when he signs with your team and wears your team's uniform, suddenly he's a great guy.

Music is very different from sports to me. I understand not liking a group anymore if a singer or guitarist departs and is replaced with someone you don't care for. Groups evolve whether or not they keep the same members. To me, losing a member here and there is another part of the evolution for some bands. I will root for my favorite team no matter who is playing (except for T.O.), but I will not be a fan of Journey when their music sucks, or if they had gotten a lousy singer to replace Perry. For example, when Cherone joined Van Halen, they lost a LOT of fans b/c he was not a good fit. As long as the spirit, or the uniqueness of a band stays intact, that's what's important.

[SuiteMadameBlue]

I never realized how many bands are still performing that don't have all their original band members until I was a member on this board.

I know we had this discussion before, but I think U2 & ZZ Top are the only bands that has it's original members from the beginning to now. Rush is close, but Neil Peart wasn't the original drummer.

I think everyone knows how I feel about the Styx situation. If Dennis wasn't kicked out like he was, I sure would be following the current line-up and promoting the heck out of them (more than I already do sometimes - LOL). When Tommy left the band, that was a different situation and I was okay with that and still supported Styx and also Damn Yankees.

As for musicians, sometimes their voices are shot and can't sing like they used to.

Classic, how do you think the Bucks are going to do this season? Porter is out as coach and then they picked up Bogut. I'm excited this season

[ek88]

This reminds me of a Seinfeld bit where he said you don't really root for players, you root for a uniform.

Boy, isn't that the truth, especially in this age of free agency!

You can hate a guy when he's wearing another team's uniform, but when he signs with your team and wears your team's uniform, suddenly he's a great guy.

LOL -- I'm a Cowboys fan and it nearly killed me several years back having to actually root for Deion Sanders all of the sudden! Ugh! But like you said, the whole uniform thing. Hmm . . . maybe Larry should start dressing like Dennis!

[sadie65]

Well, first off, most sports teams have been around a lot longer than most of us. Not all, but many. And I think it depends on who is being replaced/traded/sent to the minors..well you get the idea.

Perhaps if details of the split weren't made so public, the fans might have accepted things a little easier. The internet made it quite easy to divide the fans. Appears that's still the case.

So many different comparisons and analogies have been made to the split..splits in general. When did we discover the band? What appealed to us emotionally about them...because at some point our emotions got involved..lest we all wouldn't be posting here. And when did we want to know more, hear more, believe more that the men performing on that stage would be the exact same way off stage. Something quite nebulous in "celebrity". No different here.

I'm from Chicago...when Jordan left, we hung on for a while (heck, any town that has the Cubbies and the Bears knows something about being in it for the long haul

)

[RoyalOakRoadie]

Everyone makes valid points here, I guess i can see a difference, but I can also see some similarities. (boy, that sounds very middle of the road, lol)
For me, I know I followed the St. Louis Blues a little less rabidly after they lost Hull, and Shannahan, and CuJo. I live in the Detroit Metro area now, and I HATE the RedWings, lol, but I still kept abreast of my former fave players on the Blues, even though they at one time or another played for the "enemy".

Someone mentioned DDY being kicked out of Styx, if I recall correctly, he is the only one that tells it that way, correct me if I am wrong. Saying Perry isnt up to snuff so Journey is easier to follow is kinda hypocritical to me, technically DDY isnt up to snuff, in the fact that even he admits, he cant tour 200 days a year anymore, he isnt physically able. Frankly, kicked out or not, what choice did Styx have? Tour 25-50 dates a year, if that?

I guess what I dont get is the hatred here toeard fellow board members. Bottom line, whether we like the CURRENT versions of our favorite bands, one thing we CAN agree on, is we still like the cleassic versions. I guess I just dont get the sometimes downright mean spirited posts here. I guess as I said, this really is a polarizing issue, though I personally still cant understand it being THAT polarizing. My goodness, my girl friend is a Liberal Dem, and I am a Conservative, and we get along! lol

Peace (please?lol)
Roadie

[sadie65]

Okay...one more time into the abyss...

Dennis is kicked out, Dennis didn't want to tour, Dennis was a prima donna...JY and Tommy should have waited, JY and Tommy had every right to tour.

Basically, it comes down to your own belief system and your own perception of the events. As I said, the internet sure made it easy for us to become judge, jury, and executioner.

Whether Dennis was a prima donna, JY was arrogant... whatever.

For some, the band continuing with a reasonable standin was and is perfectly acceptable. For others, it was/is hard to reconcile the idea that the members of the band would choose to go out on the road when another member was sick. There are those who don't think he was sick, so they justify acceptance that way.

The hateful comments made here are designed to continue the friction. Those making them are very good at it. By and large, most here go see who they like, marginally accept each "side" and only lash out when constantly provoked. The trick is defining what provokes you.

And with all that said...none of us knows the whole story.

Peace

[Monker]

You know, when Dennis sells 600 seats and only fills a venue 1/3 full, people here say, "It's about the music..." The, when it comes to Styx vs. Dennis - the music is barely even mentioned

The bottm line for me is that Styx didn't miss a beat without Dennis. If it's all about the music, Styx has it all.

Okay...one more time into the abyss...

Dennis is kicked out, Dennis didn't want to tour, Dennis was a prima donna...JY and Tommy should have waited, JY and Tommy had every right to tour.

Basically, it comes down to your own belief system and your own perception of the events. As I said, the internet sure made it easy for us to become judge, jury, and executioner.

Whether Dennis was a prima donna, JY was arrogant... whatever.

For some, the band continuing with a reasonable standin was and is perfectly acceptable. For others, it was/is hard to reconcile the idea that the members of the band would choose to go out on the road when another member was sick. There are those who don't think he was sick, so they justify acceptance that way.

The hateful comments made here are designed to continue the friction. Those making them are very good at it. By and large, most here go see who they like, marginally accept each "side" and only lash out when constantly provoked. The trick is defining what provokes you.

And with all that said...none of us knows the whole story.

Peace

[Ash]

..actually, this is more about any band that changes membership and polarizes its fan base.

I was thinking about how polarizing it is when a band changes a major member, and tried comparing it to a major sports team, a band is after all, a team. Personally I have never ran into a sports fan so rabid over one member of a team that they abandon that team when a member moves on. I didnt hear anyone say "I just cant watch anyone else play guard for the Pacers, I refuse to go see them live anymore" when Reggie retired.

So why is it that way in music with some fans? What is it about a band that makes people so vehement that they may not change certain members? Am I reaching here? or is there a parallel between the difference seeing the Pacers without Reggie makes, compared to the difference that seeing (insert band here) without (insert band member here) makes? To a rabid fan, they can indeed see a difference when watching a game of thier favorite sports team without a key player, as we music fans can hear a difference in our favorite bands without certain key players. Wherein lies the difference?

Hmm, maybe I am trying too hard to rationalize a subjective experience?

Discuss..

If you had a team with a high-calibur player and then the franchaise sold him out for whatever reasons, then yeah you'd have a problem with some fans. If Green Bay just decided to dump Brett Favre (a hall of famer) and did it in a really nasty way, I'd have a hard time continuing to support the Packers (Big packers fan BTW). Same with Tennessee Titans and Steve McNair. If the organization doesn't treat the people who make them money right, then I won't continue to support the organization.

Nuff said.

[Ash]

You know, when Dennis sells 600 seats and only fills a venue 1/3 full, people here say, "It's about the music..." The, when it comes to Styx vs. Dennis - the music is barely even mentioned

The bottm line for me is that Styx didn't miss a beat without Dennis. If it's all about the music, Styx has it all.

Yeah??

Well when Styx is #43 on the chart for the first time in 15 years without Dennis it's "OMFG Styx doesn't need that egomaniac loser asshole anymore"

And then 3 weeks later when it's off the chart and not on the radio it's "Well sales and radio doesn't have anything to do with good music."

Everyone's a hippocrite. Everyone's one-sided. Everyone sucks. It's a non-stop disco and people=shit.

Now I remember why I stopped coming here. Didn't take long.

[Monker]

Well when Styx is #43 on the chart for the first time in 15 years without Dennis it's "OMFG Styx doesn't need that egomaniac loser asshole anymore"

And then 3 weeks later when it's off the chart and not on the radio it's "Well sales and radio doesn't have anything to do with good music."

Everyone's a hippocrite. Everyone's one-sided, Everyone sucks and people=shit.

That may be what others have said, but it's not what I have said. I decided they didn't need Dennis after hearing Cyclorama, not BBT.

It's nice to know that the music you personaly enjoy is heard and listened to by the masses. But, charting and radio time is not required to make it a good song.

It's also good when Styx does it so I can constantly do a 'nya, nya' to people like Froy. Whether he likes it or not, it DID chart, and it WAS on radio...that is a verifiable fact that can not be denied.

[ek88]

"Well sales and radio doesn't have anything to do with good music."

While I'm certain that some people are influenced by sales and radio, I tend to think it boils down to personal preference. It'd be a real shame if a person stumbled onto some music that they really liked, but turned their back on it because it wasn't a big seller or didn't get any airplay.

Well when Styx is #43 on the chart for the first time in 15 years without Dennis it's "OMFG Styx doesn't need that egomaniac loser asshole anymore"

I'm happy for the guys in Styx that they were able to chart and I think it's a nice feather they can stick in their cap. For me, that's the end of the story. I didn't give it much thought beyond that.

Now I remember why I stopped coming here. Didn't take long.

Well, I hope you don't stop permanently. I enjoy reading your posts! Keep in mind that there are several quality posts each day to balance out the ones that you find bothersome!

[classicstyxfan]

Ash Said :

If you had a team with a high-calibur player and then the franchise sold him out for whatever reasons, then yeah you'd have a problem with some fans. If Green Bay just decided to dump Brett Favre (a hall of famer) and did it in a really nasty way, I'd have a hard time continuing to support the Packers (Big packers fan BTW). If the organization doesn't treat the people who make them money right, then I won't continue to support the organization.

Nuff said.

Classic says:

A valid analogy, Ash.......and any fan of the greatest franchise in all of pro sports ( The Packers, of course ! ) is a friend of mine ! BTW, I'll be going up for the shareholders meeting later this month, and they'll be holding a "shareholders only" practice for us inside Lambeau after the meeting. very cool !!!!

[Zan]

Am I a hypocrite because I think Styx is better off without DDY and visa versa? Am I a hypocrite because I am happy for the band when their album charts in any way and yet understands that it would probably not do "great" with the masses, but I like it anyway?

I don't get it.

I'm tired of hearing the same shit over & over by the same people, just as much as you are, Ash. But just because I happen to understand that something doesn't have to "chart" to be good, and I happen to say so when rabid, bitter fans throw the "charts" in my face, doesn't make me a hypocrite. Or = shit.

[RoyalOakRoadie]

The way I see it is it's like a marriage where the two people involved are happier after the divorce, and I am friends with both of them. Yeah, its awkward at times, but I like them both and I just have to deal with those who take sides, lol.

Roadie

[sadie65]

I have said numerous times I think a reunion with Dennis and the band would be a terrible thing. I know I also said numerous times that BBT was a success simply because it was what the band wanted and it got released.

Songs off of BBT were released to radio. One of Dennis' songs also had some radio play (Hello God). It was great that each of them had some radio play, however short lived it was.

The arguments for and against either Styx and Dennis are old. As for hypocrisy, I think it resides in many...but only because we tolerate like minded views and are quick to dismiss opposing views. In doing so, it gets interpreted as hypocrisy, whether or not that was ever the original intent of the poster(s).

Hoping everyone had a great 4th.

Peace

[Ash]

Am I a hypocrite because I think Styx is better off without DDY and visa versa? Am I a hypocrite because I am happy for the band when their album charts in any way and yet understands that it would probably not do "great" with the masses, but I like it anyway?

I don't get it.

I'm tired of hearing the same shit over & over by the same people, just as much as you are, Ash. But just because I happen to understand that something doesn't have to "chart" to be good, and I happen to say so when rabid, bitter fans throw the "charts" in my face, doesn't make me a hypocrite. Or = shit.

I think you missed the point of what I was trying to say. The point is that everyone has their one-sided argument that they bring to the table almost everytime people go down "this path".

And then these two sides sling it out over things they said in the past and trying to draw analogies to past analogies when the root of the matter is that people care way to much about something so trivial and ultimately uncontrollable.

No amount of whining, bitching, complaining or "boycotting" of anyone is going to amount to a hill of beans to either of these camps.

I think a lot of peopel come here with an open mind and are pretty receptive to the ideas of others even if those ideas don't happen to be in agreement. But it's the people (and I won't name names) who say something one week and something different the next and then do semantic gymnastics to try and get you to believe they've had the same story all along that just really gets old.

I have BBT. I think it's a great record. I'm not thrilled that it's a cover record, but hey - it's better than I expected. I don't care if it charts - I don't care if it sells or gets played on the radio because I don't watch charts or listen to radio. At the end of the day, it matters very little to Styx as well (the current line up). What matters is people showing up at the shows. And some nights there may be 600 people there and some nights there may be 6000 people there. Taking one instance as a baromoter for everything is something frequently done on this forum - and it sounds equally retarded everytime it happens. And what many people don't know is that the band, or Dennis gets the SAME PAYCHECK no matter how many people come to the show. So if that venue is having them back or the promoter of the 600 ticket show wants to do DDY again - then he must have made money - or why would he do it a second time.

Hope this makes sense

[Zan]

I think you missed the point of what I was trying to say.

So it seems. lol

The point is that everyone has their one-sided argument that they bring to the table almost everytime people go down "this path".

And then these two sides sling it out over things they said in the past and trying to draw analogies to past analogies when the root of the matter is that people care way to much about something so trivial and ultimately uncontrollable.

No amount of whining, bitching, complaining or "boycotting" of anyone is going to amount to a hill of beans to either of these camps.

Uh huh. Yep.

I think a lot of peopel come here with an open mind and are pretty receptive to the ideas of others even if those ideas don't happen to be in agreement. But it's the people (and I won't name names) who say something one week and something different the next and then do semantic gymnastics to try and get you to believe they've had the same story all along that just really gets old.

Maybe I haven't been paying enough attention, but of the regular cast of characters on this board, I've only seen a 2-3 people "change their tune" to suit their cause. The rest have their stance but don't feel the need to serve it to everyone else on with a bitter side sauce. Yes, it does get old. However, it's a far cry from "everyone." LOL

I have BBT. I think it's a great record. I'm not thrilled that it's a cover record, but hey - it's better than I expected. I don't care if it charts - I don't care if it sells or gets played on the radio because I don't watch charts or listen to radio. At the end of the day, it matters very little to Styx as well (the current line up). What matters is people showing up at the shows. And some nights there may be 600 people there and some nights there may be 6000 people there. Taking one instance as a baromoter for everything is something frequently done on this forum - and it sounds equally retarded everytime it happens. And what many people don't know is that the band, or Dennis gets the SAME PAYCHECK no matter how many people come to the show. So if that venue is having them back or the promoter of the 600 ticket show wants to do DDY again - then he must have made money - or why would he do it a second time.

Hope this makes sense

See highlighted section above, THOSE SELECT FEW PEOPLE who won't let it go, even if it is just to make a point! haha

[yogi]

All I can add to this is??????....................................... Who is the 'REAL' Batman?? Is it Adam West?, or is it Michael Keaton?, how about Val Ewing, I mean Val Kilmer?, who is playing Batman now?? hell if I know,but is he the 'REAL' Batman???............

[ek88]

My vote is for Adam West: "Robin, pass me the Bat-shark repellant!"

[classicstyxfan]

Definately Adam West !

"Robin ! reach over to my Bat belt, and grab the Bat Shark repellant.....
I carry it for situations just like this"


I LOVE that old TV series !!!

Oh, we WERE talking about Styx, weren't we ? here's a few stock answers for that topic:

Kilroy sucks, Gowan shouldn't sing Dennis' songs, Cyclorama is pretty good, so is BBT. JY is a big meanie !!!!

[yogi]

BATMAN=STYX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[sadie65]

BATMAN=STYX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah but who's the best commissioner and more importantly, which Alfred steals the show/movie?

[Abitaman]

OKAYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Besides being a Styx/Journey fan. And like some of us Star Wars fans, and Star Trek. I am a Comic fan (mainly DC), and a BIG Batman/Superman fan.

The new Batman is very true to the comics, and is by far the best of the movies. I, even when I was a kid, did not like the Adam West/ Burt Ward Batman show. They almost ruined it, as The Val and George Batman's almost did. If you haven't seen the new Batman, go see it-ERIC

[classicstyxfan]

you know, I liked the old TV show cus it didnt take itself too seriously....kind of like DDY, or at least his stage personna.


Do you suppose off camera, that Adam West was an ASSHOLE too ?

[Monker]

you know, I liked the old TV show cus it didnt take itself too seriously....kind of like DDY, or at least his stage personna.


Do you suppose off camera, that Adam West was an ASSHOLE too ?

If he sued Tim Burton for carrying on the idea of putting Batman on film, I would be the first to say he was acting like an asshole, just like I have in other situations.

For example, when Stephen Housden sued Birtles/Shorrock/Goble for promoting themselves as "The original voices of the LIttle River Band", he was being an asshole. Geez, check out the cover to "Full Circle"...the Marquee reads, "The original voices of ??? ?????? ????? ????". If Tommy and JY did that to Dennis, they would be acting like assholes too.

If Perry, or Gregg Rolie, or Herbie, would have sued Journey, I'd have said the same thing about any of them too.

[ek88]

you know, I liked the old TV show cus it didnt take itself too seriously

I can think of few other shows that perfected the art of being cheesy and likeable at the same time.