Ok Andrew, Be Honest.

[Rockindeano]

Bryan Adams Live in Lisbon or Toto live?

Dude, I know you have heard Lisbon....be honest, which is better?

Live in Lisbon to me is the best live album of the last 5 years.

[r@y]

Dude, BA kicks ass...no denying that, BUT have you been to a Toto concert...??

Do me a favour, I believe, hang on, yup...they're doing Wiltern Theatre, LA in September, go catch a live Toto show...

And you'll know what I am talking about....


Ray

[Andrew]

Jeez....Toto every day of the week, every week of the year. See them live this year dude...then get back to me.

[Rockindeano]

I will, but I think eitehr one of you has his lips firmly around the others' pole...

BA and his band are more talented, have more hits and rock better, but hey, it's just an opinion.

I will see Toto, just for you Wombat Bitch, but you need to open a BA forum.....the Journy Forum is way out of control, LOL

[r@y]

I will, but I think eitehr one of you has his lips firmly around the others' pole...

BA and his band are more talented, have more hits and rock better, but hey, it's just an opinion.

I will see Toto, just for you Wombat Bitch, but you need to open a BA forum.....the Journy Forum is way out of control, LOL

BA and his band more talented..?? You ARE kidding, right...?


Ray

[Rockindeano]

I will, but I think eitehr one of you has his lips firmly around the others' pole...

BA and his band are more talented, have more hits and rock better, but hey, it's just an opinion.

I will see Toto, just for you Wombat Bitch, but you need to open a BA forum.....the Journy Forum is way out of control, LOL

BA and his band more talented..?? You ARE kidding, right...?


Ray

No fuckdick, I am not. BA is more talented than anyone in Toto

Sings, plays lead guitar, rythm guitar, piano, and bass

[r@y]

I will, but I think eitehr one of you has his lips firmly around the others' pole...

BA and his band are more talented, have more hits and rock better, but hey, it's just an opinion.

I will see Toto, just for you Wombat Bitch, but you need to open a BA forum.....the Journy Forum is way out of control, LOL

BA and his band more talented..?? You ARE kidding, right...?


Ray

No fuckdick, I am not. BA is more talented than anyone in Toto

Sings, plays lead guitar, rythm guitar, piano, and bass

Ok dickhead, I am just gonna take one band member of Toto, guitaris Steve Lukather...

He sings, plays guitar ( every fuckin one there is, rhythm,lead whatever ), bass, piano, and has written and produced hits for....oh, never mind...

That list could go on and on....

Dude, BA is talented as hell, I dont deny that...but you said more talented than 'anyone' in Toto...and I haven't got to the Toto drummer, lead vox, and keyboardist yet....




Ray

[*Laura]

I really enjoyed Toto's Live In Amsterdam,they are really good...Lukather will always be one of my all time favorite guitarits out there.The man is a wizard.
But I have to say that Adams blows me away with the Lisbon concert! He is a perfect one man show! Every song is beautifully done,he knows how to rock the house and then how to make you sigh....Simply amazing.

[Andrew]

BA is good, his band (esp. Keith Scott) are great, but NO ONE tops Toto for technical skill and soulful spirit.

+ they have played on literally 1000's of records and hits. Check the discography at www.stevelukather.net

[Rockindeano]

BA is good, his band (esp. Keith Scott) are great, but NO ONE tops Toto for technical skill and soulful spirit.

+ they have played on literally 1000's of records and hits. Check the discography at www.stevelukather.net

BS. Live, NO ONE is better than Journey. The vocals are tight and right on EVERY night!

[Toto_fan]

Ho Deano Really cool of you to go to a Toto concert you won't be dissapointed. Toto rocks big time.

And No Bryan adams defenitley isn't more talent than Toto Steve Lukather has played over 1500 records and have been nominated about 15 times for grammy award and has over 200 platina and gold record that speaks alot.

But It's cool of you to cheek them out I think you gonna be atleast a little more Toto fan then!!


all the best // Johan

[r@y]

BA is good, his band (esp. Keith Scott) are great, but NO ONE tops Toto for technical skill and soulful spirit.

+ they have played on literally 1000's of records and hits. Check the discography at www.stevelukather.net

BS. Live, NO ONE is better than Journey. The vocals are tight and right on EVERY night!

Ray

[Rockindeano]

Fuck yes, I WILL check them out. I am NOT bashing Toto at all. I know they are talented.

I used to think Journey was the most talented band until, well, until....Neal, Jon and Deen are as good as any three in music. However, 3 is not enough. Besides, I wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire. Jesus, Steve perry, Neal Schon and Jon Cain..Are there any 3 worse guys in music? All assholes, motherfuckers or thieves.

Hell, now that Journey has gone belly up, I need a new band. I have Bruce and Adams, need one more.

Toto may be it.

[Liam]

BA is good, his band (esp. Keith Scott) are great, but NO ONE tops Toto for technical skill and soulful spirit.

+ they have played on literally 1000's of records and hits. Check the discography at www.stevelukather.net

I've got to disagree with ya on that one Andrew. As far as technical skill and Soulful spirit (mainly with the past 8 years) I've got to go with Rush. I've been a fan since about '84, but NOW...I'd have to say that Vapor Trails is one of the best albums to come out in the last 20 years. ( I know, half love it, half hate it...but just read the lyrics. They're amazing.)
Even aside from that....Geddy, Alex, and Neil are probably the best and most spectactular musicians on the planet as a whole. Anyway....End "rant".lol
Laters,

[Toto_fan]

Deano Well good choise To go with Toto I really think you gonna be a fan if you go to some concert.

Buy or download legally of course some records not just listen to the hits. I think you might like the little more hardge edged stuff so look for these albums

Isolation
The Seventh One
Kingdom of desire
Falling in Between
Turn Back
Hydra
Toto IV

Well I can say I respect Journey and Rush and Toto I don't comapre them like that but they are some of the or the Best musicians in a band on the planet.

I'm really glad that you honestely take a deeper look at Toto Deano

And for all Toto fans if you haven't signed up for the Totonetwork.com yet do so. They don't have that much stuff up yet but theres a few videos and the band keeps posting cool video casts all the time and there's ton of pictures that every member has in their own gallery!

Take care // Johan

[Cato Alumni]

Buy or download legally of course some records not just listen to the hits.

Actually, I'm inclined to believe Toto's best songs are their hits. Sure, die hard fans will have their favorites (like maybe Angela, Afraid of Love, or something), but the vast majority of people will take Africa and Hold the Line to the bank every time. The only exception I can think of is Goin' Home which never saw a proper release.

I think you might like the little more hardge edged stuff so look for these albums

Isolation
The Seventh One
Kingdom of desire
Falling in Between
Turn Back
Hydra
Toto IV

First, I would never recommend Turn Back or Hydra to anyone. Period. Hydra is half-assed, with exactly one good song -- "Hydra" (okay, sure it's a great song). Turn Back is no-assed. Those records were duds for a reason.

Second, IV and their debut and possibly Tambu, are the only discs I'd recommend to most people. The rest have either a) not aged well; b) don't hold up to repeat listens; or c) are inconsistent. Again, die hards will like anything, but that doesn't mean others will. I guess if someone wants a time warp back into the eighties, then Seventh One or Fahrenheit will suffice too.

Third, Seventh One, Isolation and IV, are certainly not "hard edged". The only songs I can think of that actually "rock" (let alone have a "hard edge") are Afraid of Love and Home of the Brave. Bryan Adams rocks a lot harder (or at least, used to) than pretty much any of Toto's eighties stuff.

Finally, Kingdom of Desire and their newer stuff rock, but the quality of their records hasn't reached their debut or IV, so it is not as if I'd recommend those to a casual fan.

[Cato Alumni]

And yes, Vapor Trails is the best Rush record since Moving Pictures and one of the better hard rock/metal records of the last 15 years.

[Taliwakker]

And yes, Vapor Trails is the best Rush record since Moving Pictures and one of the better hard rock/metal records of the last 15 years.

You don't listen to too much hard rock/metal judging by the last half of that sentence.

[Cato Alumni]

Actually, quite the opposite.

Since 1991, I can think of only a few records that are in the same ballpark in terms of innovation, freshness, and consistency:

Bruce Dickinson -- Accident of Birth, Chemical Wedding
Halford -- Ressurection, Crucible
Maiden -- BNW, DoD
Metallica -- St. Anger
Dream Theater -- Images and Words

None of the quintessential thrash bands (Slayer, Megadeth, Anthrax, Testament...) have done anything that really stands out. [On a side note, I don't know why Chuck Billy insists on the death growl he has a very good and distinctive vocal.] And even the proggy St. Anger is highly disliked. Obviously no pop-metal bands have done anything remarkable (with the possible exception of Tesla's Into the Now); and the European metal scene is stale.

Granted, I only have about a 1000 metal cds, so there may be things I've overlooked, but as I look at the rest of my collection.. in 20 years I can't imagine any of them standing as tall as Vapor Trails.

[Liam]

Actually, quite the opposite.

Since 1991, I can think of only a few records that are in the same ballpark in terms of innovation, freshness, and consistency:

Bruce Dickinson -- Accident of Birth, Chemical Wedding
Halford -- Ressurection, Crucible
Maiden -- BNW, DoD
Metallica -- St. Anger
Dream Theater -- Images and Words

None of the quintessential thrash bands (Slayer, Megadeth, Anthrax, Testament...) have done anything that really stands out. [On a side note, I don't know why Chuck Billy insists on the death growl he has a very good and distinctive vocal.] And even the proggy St. Anger is highly disliked. Obviously no pop-metal bands have done anything remarkable (with the possible exception of Tesla's Into the Now); and the European metal scene is stale.

Granted, I only have about a 1000 metal cds, so there may be things I've overlooked, but as I look at the rest of my collection.. in 20 years I can't imagine any of them standing as tall as Vapor Trails.

The only thing wrong with Vapor Trails was the loudness in the production. Other than that, STELLAR Album.
As far as the St. Anger thing goes...EESH....recorded in a tin can. lol.
Maiden's Brave New World was great. The Wicker Man is still tied with Wasted Time as my favorite tracks by them.
Images and Words is a GREAT effort from DT. so that one's agreed on. ( as are most of the others). I do wanna throw another DT mention in here...Train Of Thought. Not a lot of people liked it...but "As I Am" and "Stream of Consciencness" were Awesome tracks.
I just woke up so that's it for me right now. lol.

[Cato Alumni]

I'm used to poorly produced CDs so that doesn't usually stick out when I hear even a new record. I want memorable riffs, melodies and energy/attitude. Vapor Trails (and even Dance of Death) might not be the best produced records but I don't mind that so much.

The DVD of St. Anger sounds a lot better than the cd, if that's what is holding you back. I don't mind so much the unique drum sound.. and even its "tinniness" isn't always apparent. I'm a fan of some prog metal like King Diamond and DT, so St. Anger really works for me -- lots of time changes, great riffs, and interesting vocal and drum arrangements. It takes about 5 listens to fully absorb, but usually the stuff I like I hate when I first listen to it. Aside from the absence of solos, it is certainly the truest to old-school metallica (and best overall) since Justice.

I like Train of Thought, but it is not really a classic record. DT are one of the few bands that have kept the mantle of oldschool metal going strong during the nineties.

[jrnyman28]

The DVD of St. Anger sounds a lot better than the cd, if that's what is holding you back. I don't mind so much the unique drum sound.. and even its "tinniness" isn't always apparent.

I am one of those people who could not get past the tinny drum sound. I liked the rest of what I heard but never bought the CD. At least it was something different and I give them credit for that.

but usually the stuff I like I hate when I first listen to it.

I have found that a CD that takes time to grow on me seems to last longer as well.

[Taliwakker]

Bruce Dickinson -- Accident of Birth, Chemical Wedding
Halford -- Ressurection, Crucible
Maiden -- BNW, DoD
Metallica -- St. Anger
Dream Theater -- Images and Words

Out of that lot i'd say DT -Images and Words and Bruce's Chemical Wedding are standouts.

Maiden's last two are pretty average....BNW had 'Ghost of the Navigator' and that is the only thing that stands up to the vintage Maiden.

St Anger is a joke......and Halfords discs are solid but nothing great really.

If you think they are the only fresh innovative albums in the last 15 years then i'm here to give you a brief education.

T-Ride - s/t.....came out the same year as Images and Words...only released one album...hard rock with big and clever vocal harmonies. A totally fresh rhythmic guitar style.

Devin Townsend-Ocean Machine...heard anything like this before
and in the same year he released the Strapping Young Lad cd 'City'...another landmark metal album.

Tool-Aenema

Ron Thal-Hermit (and every other album he's done)-This guy is the new guitar player in Guns n Roses. Probably the most inventive guitar player since Steve Vai.

Opeth-Still Life,Blackwater Park, Ghost Reveries.....perfect blend of folk prog and Death.

Ayreon-The Human Equation....the best concept album since Operation Mindcrime.

Ark-Burn the Sun-Best prog album since Images and Words + Jorn is way superior to James LaBrie.

Pantera-Vulgar Display of Power (just makes the 15 year cut off). Influencial or what?

Faith No More-King For a Day

Freak Kitchen-Dead Soul Men, Move. Progressive hard rock.

Incubus-Make Yourself

Fuck this there are too many...like albums from

Jorn/Masterplan
Symphony X
Into Eternity
Mercenary
Transatlantic
Kings X
Karmacanic
The Flower Kings
Spoack's Beard
Kino
Killswitch Engage
Soilwork
The Mars Volta
Pain of Salvation
Pagan's Mind
Porcupine Tree
Frameshift
Sevendust
Ra
Scar Symmetry
Dan Swano
Wastefall
Vanden Plas

etc etc

that are all much better than Rush's Vapour Trails.

[Cato Alumni]

VDOP is a classic, I figured it was before the cutoff. But it is right on it. Actually FBD probably ought to be included as well.

Vanden Plas has done some good stuff, but fresh? They sound exactly like DT (which isn't necessarily a bad thing). And their records are nowhere as memorable or as consistent as Vapor Trails. Far from Grace was good.. but we're not talking about good records.

Ditto for Symphony X, albeit to a lesser extent. Frankly, there is DT, then there is everything else (Spock's Beard, Flower Kings, etc.). I'm not saying they aren't good groups, but to my ears they've done nothing close to the classic that Rush has.

I'm not a Tool or Sevendust fan, but they've done some decent records. Probably the only nu-metal bands to make any lasting impression.

King for a Day was alright.

European bands, in general, take metal WAY too seriously for me to take them seriously. Soilwork is good. Killswitch Engage is anything but original or fresh --they sound like 1000 other metalcore bands. Most powermetal is just laughable (even the stuff I happen to like).

Death metal like Opeth and Into Eternity I write off right away. If you can't sing, don't bother calling it metal and certainly not classic. All it shows is a lack of talent. Man, even Araya and Cronos are singers.

Look, if you perceive there has been some kind of metal renaissance from 1992-2006, more power to you. Frankly, I've heard none of it. The metal scene has had some bright spots (as I mentioned earlier). But twenty years from now? I'm sorry, but you're never going to hear, 'oh, Into Eternity influenced me to become a hardrock/metal band'. No, they are going to look to Sabbath, Maiden, Priest, Rush, Zep, Purple, Motorhead, Metallica et al.

I'm more than happy to stand by VT as the classic release of 2002 and of hardrock/metal, in the last 15 years. You obviously like different music than I do, but it has nothing to do with my lack of knowledge of the genre.

[Taliwakker]

Death metal like Opeth and Into Eternity I write off right away. If you can't sing, don't bother calling it metal and certainly not classic

Obviously haven't heard much of these bands if you think they can't sing

Into Eternity
http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/clipserv ... 65-7970315

http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/clipserv ... 65-7970315

http://mp3.centurymedia.com/IntoEternit ... eaming.mp3

Opeth

http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/clipserv ... 65-7970315

http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/clipserv ... 65-7970315

Funny...sounds like singing to me...better than Araya or Cronos....and i hear some talent there.

Ditto for Symphony X, albeit to a lesser extent. Frankly, there is DT, then there is everything else (Spock's Beard, Flower Kings, etc.). I'm not saying they aren't good groups, but to my ears they've done nothing close to the classic that Rush has.

Spock's and Flower Kings don't have much to do with DT at all....seriously...these are more Genesis type prog than DT's metallirush.

And i'm also not saying that Rush aren't a great classic band....but i wouldn't put VT up there with Moving Pictures, 2112 or Hemispheres.

The metal scene has had some bright spots (as I mentioned earlier). But twenty years from now? I'm sorry, but you're never going to hear, 'oh, Into Eternity influenced me to become a hardrock/metal band'. No, they are going to look to Sabbath, Maiden, Priest, Rush, Zep, Purple, Motorhead, Metallica et al.

I don't think so. I teach guitar at a music school and the kids of today are coming to lessons with bands like Trivium and In Flames. These are the bands getting kids into metal these days....i'm 30 and the bands you mentioned got me into metal. The newer bands contain plenty of elements of the classic bands from the 70's and 80's and kids who get into metal will probably find out about the original forefathers down the track...but if you think the music of 20-30 years ago is gonna influence kids 20 years down the track you are kidding yourself....fuck...half the kids aged 15-20 i teach don't even know who Eddie Van Halen is.

You obviously like different music than I do, but it has nothing to do with my lack of knowledge of the genre.

You've demonstrated a partial knowledge of the genre mate...and by stating albums like Dance of Death and St Anger (two of the biggest clunkers of the last 15 years...and this is a widespread opinion) as contenders for albums keeping metal alive then i really don't know.

There were quite a few on my list you didn't adress or know of...so if you haven't heard em...check em out.

[WalrusOct9]

I'm actually flying out from Chicago to the Los Angeles Toto show in September.

I highly reccomend anyone with the means to get there, go. It's such a different experience than their studio records, and the setlist they're doing this tour is great.

And um, yeah, death metal sucks. What are those guys so angry about? And why can't they just sing instead of sounding like they drank too much prune juice? (and yes, I saw Opeth's "non-metal" 2003 tour with Porcupine Tree...it basically was the same song from Damnation for 90 minutes, the guy doesn't really have a very distinctive voice when he's not screaming)

[Cato Alumni]

You've demonstrated a partial knowledge of the genre mate...and by stating albums like Dance of Death and St Anger (two of the biggest clunkers of the last 15 years...and this is a widespread opinion) as contenders for albums keeping metal alive then i really don't know.

Actually, what you are stating is that because I disagree with you or have a different opinion that I am in some ways "partially knowledgeable".

I think it is naive in the extreme to think that Maiden's reunion in 1999 did not kickstart a revival in metal (at least in oldschool metal). Obviously Sabbaths' reunion and now Priest's reunion have also had a major impact.

Moreover, as to the "clunkers" of the last 15 years:

1. DoD went platinum in many countries around the world and sold 150,000 in a US mkt (according to soundscan) which is generally hostile to oldschool metal. Most metal bands would kill for that kind of success. Heck, DT can barely sell 80,000 in the US.
2. DoD has been called the best metal record of the year (2003) at numerous metal websites, such as the highly respected metal-rules.com.
3. Amazon.com rates it at 4/5 from 500 users. [While certainly a lot of the ratings come from die-hards (as with any of these ratings), what could be more accurately termed a clunker, Virtual XI, rates at 3/5 from 100 users. Clearly the "masses" are making some distinction in quality between the two].

Frankly, "widespread opinion" doesn't seem to me very "widespread". At the time it came out BNW was the best thing they've done since Seventh Son, but DoD is probably their 5th best record. If you don't think it is as good as what others are saying, that's fine.. but don't say (unfoundly) that it is complete crap and then use this information to further your argument.

As to St. Anger, this is tough to judge the record's general quality given the band is so massive worldwide and continues to be very popular. For instance, in spite of what you suggest is "widespread opinion" that St. Anger is bad, it sold 2 million copies in the US and went platinum all over the world. They continue to win awards. Is part of this attributable to past successes? Probably. Did they irritate fans with a return to their old sound? I'm sure they did. But bad records from good bands don't sell. St. Anger did.

To me, this album is a much awaited return to their roots. Aside from the quality of the music, it is innovative and has a unique sound (in more ways than one). I'll take it over any European powermetal band, who are rehashing Sabbath riffs, or death metal groups that can't sing, any day of the week.

There were quite a few on my list you didn't adress or know of...so if you haven't heard em...check em out.

I will. There's so much crap out there it is hard to take it all in.

[Cato Alumni]

I don't think so. I teach guitar at a music school and the kids of today are coming to lessons with bands like Trivium and In Flames. These are the bands getting kids into metal these days....i'm 30 and the bands you mentioned got me into metal. The newer bands contain plenty of elements of the classic bands from the 70's and 80's and kids who get into metal will probably find out about the original forefathers down the track...but if you think the music of 20-30 years ago is gonna influence kids 20 years down the track you are kidding yourself....fuck...half the kids aged 15-20 i teach don't even know who Eddie Van Halen is.

Certainly newer bands have to be a gateway to the older groups in many respects (if for no other reason that older metal is hard to come by on the radio or MTV). But that wasn't necessarily my point. Musicians will be inspired the most by original music.. and anyone who's into metal (or any type of music, for that matter) will find out about the finest crafters of their genre in very short order. And it just so happens to be the bands I mentioned.. with obviously some newer groups as well. But overall? Without rehashing the debate, the stuff that has come out the last 15 years has been anything but inspired.

[Taliwakker]

Actually, what you are stating is that because I disagree with you or have a different opinion that I am in some ways "partially knowledgeable".

No....you claimed that Opeth and Into Eternity couldn't sing...i showed you they could...a lot better than Araya or Cronos. You were wrong.

3. Amazon.com rates it at 4/5 from 500 users. [While certainly a lot of the ratings come from die-hards (as with any of these ratings), what could be more accurately termed a clunker, Virtual XI, rates at 3/5 from 100 users. Clearly the "masses" are making some distinction in quality between the two].

Vitual X only deserves 1.5/5...it was absolutely shithouse...of course BNW and DoD are gonna sell well....every Maiden fan in the world was gonna buy a copy because Bruce is back...i got them both in the first week...i hoped for the best.

As to St. Anger, this is tough to judge the record's general quality given the band is so massive worldwide and continues to be very popular. For instance, in spite of what you suggest is "widespread opinion" that St. Anger is bad, it sold 2 million copies in the US and went platinum all over the world. They continue to win awards. Is part of this attributable to past successes? Probably. Did they irritate fans with a return to their old sound? I'm sure they did. But bad records from good bands don't sell. St. Anger did.

Again...how many of those were sold in the first few weeks...i read it was a return to the old sound...i bought it the first day along with so many other people and was shocked at how bad it was...it wasn't a return to the old sound.....if only. It was worse than Load and Reload even. I've seen a shitload of copies in second hand cd shops thats for sure.....and don't give me that 'bad records from good bands don't sell' shit....seen the charts recently?
Huge bands like Metallica and to a lesser extent Iron Maiden are always gonna sell a certain amount of cds....doesn't matter how good or bad they are...they have diehard fans,distribution and marketing behind them.

Certainly newer bands have to be a gateway to the older groups in many respects (if for no other reason that older metal is hard to come by on the radio or MTV). But that wasn't necessarily my point.

what you said was this mate

I'm sorry, but you're never going to hear, 'oh, Into Eternity influenced me to become a hardrock/metal band'. No, they are going to look to Sabbath, Maiden, Priest, Rush, Zep, Purple, Motorhead, Metallica et al.

and the fact is you do hear stuff like that...i do while i'm teaching and discussing influences etc with students....and do you know how many times the band name 'KORN' and 'Slipknot' comes up. Shit...i got into hard rock and metal through Poison...i found out about the good stuff soon after but thats how it works....maybe if i was 10 years older it would have been Sabbath and Rainbow that sparked my interest but unless dads pumping some Maiden into his kid from age 7 then most kids will be influenced by their own time and the scene that is happening at that time. Pretty obvious.

[Cato Alumni]

No....you claimed that Opeth and Into Eternity couldn't sing...i showed you they could...a lot better than Araya or Cronos. You were wrong.

I wasn't sure whether you were joking or not. Citing a handful of songs where the death growl isn't used isn't exactly interesting or compelling empirical evidence that they can sing, is it? Do you want me to cite you pages full of examples where they patently show their inability to sing? Humming over a ballad, which are few and far between, doesn't qualify you as a metal singer, let alone even in the vicinity of metal's worst singers in Araya.

Vitual X only deserves 1.5/5...it was absolutely shithouse...of course BNW and DoD are gonna sell well....every Maiden fan in the world was gonna buy a copy because Bruce is back...i got them both in the first week...i hoped for the best.

I think its an average record. As to always buying with Bruce? Fear of the Dark and No Prayer didn't sell well (relative to the times)... Fans make distinction between quality and crap.

Again...how many of those were sold [of St. Anger] in the first few weeks...i read it was a return to the old sound...i bought it the first day along with so many other people and was shocked at how bad it was...it wasn't a return to the old sound.....if only. It was worse than Load and Reload even.

Well, unless you are a band from Mars, it is always the case (except if the record is some kind of phenomenon and I'll grant you St. Anger wasn't) that the vast majority of your business comes in the first few weeks of release. As it so happened, just looking at the US, it was released in June and two months later had gotten 1.2 million in sales and in two more months another 300,000 and over the last 2 years it has sold an average of 250,000 per year.

You really don't have to convince me that you don't like the record -- I get that. But you suggested that, since I disagree with you and the "widespread opinion", that I am unknowledgeable.

I've seen a shitload of copies in second hand cd shops thats for sure

All my friends and everyone I know of personally love it. Good ol' anecdotal evidence means not a lot, does it?

.....and don't give me that 'bad records from good bands don't sell' shit....seen the charts recently?

I meant that, if you are a quality band, just because you make a record doesn't mean it will sell. If this were the case, big bands would always sell millions and they don't. I mean there are countless examples: Kiss-the Elder, Maiden- Fear of the Dark, Megadeth -- System has failed, Pantera -- Reinventing the Steel.. just looking at the metal scene.

Huge bands like Metallica and to a lesser extent Iron Maiden are always gonna sell a certain amount of cds....doesn't matter how good or bad they are...they have diehard fans,distribution and marketing behind them.

I conceded there is an element of this, but it is hard to assert something that sells 2 million in the US and millions more worldwide as a clunker when other big bands have done far worse with a "bad" release.

what you said was this mate

Quote:
I'm sorry, but you're never going to hear, 'oh, Into Eternity influenced me to become a hardrock/metal band'. No, they are going to look to Sabbath, Maiden, Priest, Rush, Zep, Purple, Motorhead, Metallica et al.

i found out about the good stuff soon after but thats how it works....

You just made my point.