Larry's First Show

[Zan]

He's doing it so people don't forget who he is.

This, I believe, at least PARTLY. Dennis was always more concerned with fame than fortune. Well, for awhile, anyway.

Dennis has always been very concerned with perception, with trying to facilitate the public perception that Styx is great and mighty and legendary and of the highest quality, and all of that. I really believe that's part of why he always wanted to limit the touring to major markets and not play secondary markets, because he wanted Styx to be perceived as a headline act that only played the biggest, best places. (Mind you, I said "part" of why, the other reason being he is not the happiest traveler under pressure). It's important for him that Styx be perceived that way, whereas I don't think he applies that to himself as a solo act as much. He is more realistic about his options as a solo act; he knows he isn't the same kind of draw that Styx was together.

Perhaps, but outside of the band, he, himself, had a much greater desire to be FAMOUS than rich.

[Rockwriter]

He's doing it so people don't forget who he is.

This, I believe, at least PARTLY. Dennis was always more concerned with fame than fortune. Well, for awhile, anyway.

Dennis has always been very concerned with perception, with trying to facilitate the public perception that Styx is great and mighty and legendary and of the highest quality, and all of that. I really believe that's part of why he always wanted to limit the touring to major markets and not play secondary markets, because he wanted Styx to be perceived as a headline act that only played the biggest, best places. (Mind you, I said "part" of why, the other reason being he is not the happiest traveler under pressure). It's important for him that Styx be perceived that way, whereas I don't think he applies that to himself as a solo act as much. He is more realistic about his options as a solo act; he knows he isn't the same kind of draw that Styx was together.

Perhaps, but outside of the band, he, himself, had a much greater desire to be FAMOUS than rich.

That is exactly true, no doubt about it. It's part of the damaged artistic personality syndrome. The exact same thing is true of Tommy, and for that matter almost everyone who is a real, genuinely talented artist. They NEED the affirmation. They didn't go through all the hell it takes to become stars because they were happy with themselves to begin with, LOL. By its very nature, the music business is an industry that caters to the exploitation of damaged personalities with consequent unusual ego needs that drive them to seek attention at all costs. I've rarely seen it go any other way. To even WANT to be famous is really kind of a sick thing to want, when you think about it, and it also takes considerable ego for a person to believe that they are capable of achieving it. You know, most people watched the Beatles on Ed Sullivan and thought, 'Holy shit, that's the most amazing thing I've ever seen, how do they do that?" Whereas Dennis and Tommy watched the Beatles on Ed Sullivan and said, 'Holy shit, that's the most amazing thing I've ever seen, and I'm capable of doing it, too!' LOL. It requires a completely different take on your relationship to the world. It requires you to think, 'You know what the word needs more of? Me! Me and my songs.' That's a wacky thing to think, even if it happens to be true.


Sterling


Sterling

[bugsymalone]

What is interesting to me is back in '79, when the band fired Dennis, he by far had the highest profile of any person in that band. His voice was known world-wide. He really could have picked himself up and probably worked that ego thing and become REALLY famous. As Dennis DeYoung.

But he didn't.

I have read enough interviews with him where he talks about wanting only to work in a band setting. That said, I think he felt he should be the leader of said band and, of course, that rankled the fellow band members. Not a unique situation by any means.

If you believe you have talent, and you go out and pursue the fame that you think your talent will support, there is no question that there is ego involved. "I am the best and I believe it." It is what drives every successful entertainer, athlete, business entrepreneur. It is also what makes them very good at what they do, if they, indeed, possess the talent.

Bugsy

[Zan]

The exact same thing is true of Tommy, and for that matter almost everyone who is a real, genuinely talented artist. They NEED the affirmation. They didn't go through all the hell it takes to become stars because they were happy with themselves to begin with, LOL. By its very nature, the music business is an industry that caters to the exploitation of damaged personalities with consequent unusual ego needs that drive them to seek attention at all costs. I've rarely seen it go any other way. To even WANT to be famous is really kind of a sick thing to want, when you think about it, and it also takes considerable ego for a person to believe that they are capable of achieving it. You know, most people watched the Beatles on Ed Sullivan and thought, 'Holy shit, that's the most amazing thing I've ever seen, how do they do that?" Whereas Dennis and Tommy watched the Beatles on Ed Sullivan and said, 'Holy shit, that's the most amazing thing I've ever seen, and I'm capable of doing it, too!' LOL. It requires a completely different take on your relationship to the world. It requires you to think, 'You know what the word needs more of? Me! Me and my songs.' That's a wacky thing to think, even if it happens to be true.

Except in Tommy's case, he BECAME that extreme (if a thousand people tell you how wonderful, good-looking and great you are, you WILL start to believe it, and eventually, maybe even NEED to hear it). Any artist wants to be recognized, but Tommy was happy playing in the bowling alley, singing the songs he'd written - at least at that time, he was. Maybe he would have become more attention-hungry down the road had Styx not made him an offer, who knows. But at the time, he was content to do what he was doing. Dennis, on the other hand, seemed to know from an early age that he wanted to be a STAR. He knew it even before he met the Panozzos.

I don't think there's anything dysfunctional about wanting to hear thousands of people cheering for you on stage, particularly once you've experienced it, but I sometimes question the sanity of those who willfully exploit their personal/private lives to attain it.

[Zan]

What is interesting to me is back in '79, when the band fired Dennis, he by far had the highest profile of any person in that band. His voice was known world-wide. He really could have picked himself up and probably worked that ego thing and become REALLY famous. As Dennis DeYoung.

But he didn't.

I have read enough interviews with him where he talks about wanting only to work in a band setting. That said, I think he felt he should be the leader of said band and, of course, that rankled the fellow band members. Not a unique situation by any means.

If you believe you have talent, and you go out and pursue the fame that you think your talent will support, there is no question that there is ego involved. "I am the best and I believe it." It is what drives every successful entertainer, athlete, business entrepreneur. It is also what makes them very good at what they do, if they, indeed, possess the talent.

Bugsy

Another interesting point. My understanding is that the "break up" was very short-lived. Maybe a month or two, tops. Not saying he couldn't have chosen to say 'screw them' and venture out on his own, but regrouping might have made the most sense (and money).

[StyxCollector]

I don't think there's anything dysfunctional about wanting to hear thousands of people cheering for you on stage, particularly once you've experienced it, but I sometimes question the sanity of those who willfully exploit their personal/private lives to attain it. [/color][/b]

And they say DDY is the only one with issues

[Rockwriter]

What is interesting to me is back in '79, when the band fired Dennis, he by far had the highest profile of any person in that band. His voice was known world-wide. He really could have picked himself up and probably worked that ego thing and become REALLY famous. As Dennis DeYoung.

But he didn't.

I have read enough interviews with him where he talks about wanting only to work in a band setting. That said, I think he felt he should be the leader of said band and, of course, that rankled the fellow band members. Not a unique situation by any means.

If you believe you have talent, and you go out and pursue the fame that you think your talent will support, there is no question that there is ego involved. "I am the best and I believe it." It is what drives every successful entertainer, athlete, business entrepreneur. It is also what makes them very good at what they do, if they, indeed, possess the talent.

Bugsy

Another interesting point. My understanding is that the "break up" was very short-lived. Maybe a month or two, tops. Not saying he couldn't have chosen to say 'screw them' and venture out on his own, but regrouping might have made the most sense (and money).

Dennis' firing lasted less than two months. In my book, Derek Sutton recalls Dennis calling him up and saying that he had lost his sense of identity. He had been Dennis DeYoung of Styx for his entire professional life, and he was tied to it in such a way that he was unable to see himself apart from it. He didn't know why it made him feel so differently about himself - he was, after all, the same person with the same talents - but it did. Also in the book, Tommy's old friend Eddie Wohlford from Harvest recalls getting to audition for Styx twice during that period. Tommy wanted a friend in the band and got him the auditions, which didn't go too well, and Eddie remembers that each time he auditioned, Tommy would get a phone call from Derek Sutton trying to talk some sense into him and prevail upon him and the others to let Dennis return to the band. He finally convinced them. Derek got Dennis his own attorney, and that attorney hammered out an agreement with the band in which they all consented to the terms under which Dennis would return.

When Styx signed with A&M, the contract provided a built-in option for Dennis to do two solo records. 1979 was certainly a year that would have provided the most "launch" for such an endeavor. At that point he did not want it, he wanted to return to Styx.


Sterling

[Rockwriter]

The exact same thing is true of Tommy, and for that matter almost everyone who is a real, genuinely talented artist. They NEED the affirmation. They didn't go through all the hell it takes to become stars because they were happy with themselves to begin with, LOL. By its very nature, the music business is an industry that caters to the exploitation of damaged personalities with consequent unusual ego needs that drive them to seek attention at all costs. I've rarely seen it go any other way. To even WANT to be famous is really kind of a sick thing to want, when you think about it, and it also takes considerable ego for a person to believe that they are capable of achieving it. You know, most people watched the Beatles on Ed Sullivan and thought, 'Holy shit, that's the most amazing thing I've ever seen, how do they do that?" Whereas Dennis and Tommy watched the Beatles on Ed Sullivan and said, 'Holy shit, that's the most amazing thing I've ever seen, and I'm capable of doing it, too!' LOL. It requires a completely different take on your relationship to the world. It requires you to think, 'You know what the word needs more of? Me! Me and my songs.' That's a wacky thing to think, even if it happens to be true.

Except in Tommy's case, he BECAME that extreme (if a thousand people tell you how wonderful, good-looking and great you are, you WILL start to believe it, and eventually, maybe even NEED to hear it). Any artist wants to be recognized, but Tommy was happy playing in the bowling alley, singing the songs he'd written - at least at that time, he was. Maybe he would have become more attention-hungry down the road had Styx not made him an offer, who knows. But at the time, he was content to do what he was doing. Dennis, on the other hand, seemed to know from an early age that he wanted to be a STAR. He knew it even before he met the Panozzos.

I don't think there's anything dysfunctional about wanting to hear thousands of people cheering for you on stage, particularly once you've experienced it, but I sometimes question the sanity of those who willfully exploit their personal/private lives to attain it.

I can't say I agree about Tommy not having had the ego needs to begin with. Yes, he has always said that he was happy there in the bowling alley playing in Harvest, but that's not really how the people who knew him then recall it. Granted, some of that may be jealousy on their part, but the guys from that band, even then, knew that Tommy was restless and that he was kinda biding his time, playing in that band to earn a decent living until something better came along. He was far more ambitious than the rest of them, always pushing for more of his originals to get into the set and so on. He only ever ended up in that band because his previous band had failed. He took the Styx opportunity when it was presented, even though he did not particularly care for the group or its members, because it was the big shot he had been looking for.

Understand, I'm not saying that's wrong. Obviously it worked. But I am saying that Tommy saw himself differently from early on, as most people who go on to become stars do. Tommy presents himself in public with kind of an "aww shucks, I'm just a simple country boy" persona, but it hides a mind that is quite a bit sharper and more calculating than might be perceived.

Having said all that, Tommy has certainly changed since becoming successful, as everyone does. Particularly since 1999, he has changed dramatically and appears to be less in touch than he used to be. I hear that all the time from everyone around the band. For what it's worth, I really like Tommy, both as a musician and as a person, and my experiences with him in interviewing him were all very good.


Sterling

[brywool]

Having been in bands for years, it may not have been ego but just vision. In bands, usually all members have a different "Vision" on what the band should be and where the band should be headed. For example, Tommy and JY have always wanted it to be a ROCK band. Dennis, seemed happy that it was a rock/pop band. So he would tend to steer it that way and T, JY would tend to steer it back to the other direction. I don't think it's that Dennis would go "We do this because I am Dennis DeYoung, the LEADER and all be all of Styx" I think it's more that "You know guys, we could get a number one hit with Babe and that'd be good for us" (in Dennis' mind). In T, JYs mind that'd be "That's not how we see ourselves, we don't care if it's number one, it's not what we see Styx as".

In bands it's always a compromise to some point. Sometimes you're playing with guys that "just don't get it". Other times, you're playing with guys that really want to stretch the band, sometimes into something the band really isn't or doesn't want to be.

Dennis seems like he's got a pretty strong personality. JY seems similar but in the opposite direction. Tommy always said "Dennis was the cheerleader. He'd always be telling US how great we were and I'd be saying 'maybe we're not as great as you think Dennis' ". Notice Dennis didn't say (at least in Tommy's quote) how great HE is? I think that everything Dennis did, he thought was for his vision of Styx. Same with the other two. I don't think that means they thought THEY were the reason the band was so successful. Otherwise, you'd have Dennis coming out and saying "I wrote every hit that band had and they're nothing without me". He doesn't say that.

I don't agree with Zan's quotes regarding The Beatles, and how desiring fame is a 'sick thing' or whatever. Some people just go "Wow, I love that sound and I think I could do that because I love music and can play". Fame is a byproduct of being an artist, not necessarily the reason for doing something. I think that was more true in the 60s and 70s than now. I think now that FAME is the impetus for record companies pushing certain artists (Beyonce, Britanny, blah blah). In the early years, I think it was more "I can make a living doing this". I know that I've done it forever and it's more that I've discovered that I was good at it not because I wanna be d' king.

[bugsymalone]

When Styx signed with A&M, the contract provided a built-in option for Dennis to do two solo records. 1979 was certainly a year that would have provided the most "launch" for such an endeavor. At that point he did not want it, he wanted to return to Styx.

Well, that was kind of my point. His opportunity was golden at that point and he wanted to stay in the band. Of course it was a sure thing for him financially (I agree, Zan) as well as the established profile being in Styx offered him. It just seems to me that someone with an overwhelming desire to be a huge star would have taken that opportunity then and there.

That said, it would have required a whole new way of operating for him as a solo performer and I am sure that would be a daunting prospect in and of itself to anyone who had spent such a long time in a band setting.

Bugsy

[shaka]

Wow, I went to a Styx show with Stabbim a couple of weeks ago and I swear it lasted a lot longer than 45 minutes.

[Rockwriter]

Having been in bands for years, it may not have been ego but just vision. In bands, usually all members have a different "Vision" on what the band should be and where the band should be headed. For example, Tommy and JY have always wanted it to be a ROCK band. Dennis, seemed happy that it was a rock/pop band. So he would tend to steer it that way and T, JY would tend to steer it back to the other direction. I don't think it's that Dennis would go "We do this because I am Dennis DeYoung, the LEADER and all be all of Styx" I think it's more that "You know guys, we could get a number one hit with Babe and that'd be good for us" (in Dennis' mind). In T, JYs mind that'd be "That's not how we see ourselves, we don't care if it's number one, it's not what we see Styx as".

In bands it's always a compromise to some point. Sometimes you're playing with guys that "just don't get it". Other times, you're playing with guys that really want to stretch the band, sometimes into something the band really isn't or doesn't want to be.

Dennis seems like he's got a pretty strong personality. JY seems similar but in the opposite direction. Tommy always said "Dennis was the cheerleader. He'd always be telling US how great we were and I'd be saying 'maybe we're not as great as you think Dennis' ". Notice Dennis didn't say (at least in Tommy's quote) how great HE is? I think that everything Dennis did, he thought was for his vision of Styx. Same with the other two. I don't think that means they thought THEY were the reason the band was so successful. Otherwise, you'd have Dennis coming out and saying "I wrote every hit that band had and they're nothing without me". He doesn't say that.

I don't agree with Zan's quotes regarding The Beatles, and how desiring fame is a 'sick thing' or whatever. Some people just go "Wow, I love that sound and I think I could do that because I love music and can play". Fame is a byproduct of being an artist, not necessarily the reason for doing something. I think that was more true in the 60s and 70s than now. I think now that FAME is the impetus for record companies pushing certain artists (Beyonce, Britanny, blah blah). In the early years, I think it was more "I can make a living doing this". I know that I've done it forever and it's more that I've discovered that I was good at it not because I wanna be d' king.

LOL, those were actually MY quotes regarding the Beatles and the need for attention that drives people to seek fame as being a sick thing. Please note, I did not say that everyone who plays music is driven by a sick need. But I will steadfastly maintain that most - not all, but the vast, overwhelming majority of those that SEEK FAME as musicians are driven by damaged personalities and the resulting unhealthy ego needs. Understand I am not saying that all ego is inherently unhealthy . . . in fact it is necessary for the music business, and people that don't have enough of it will be destroyed by the process of trying to compete at that level. For someone like Denis, for instance, his ego is both the source of much of his power, and his Achilles heel all rolled into one.

How do you explain why every single successful band you could care to name seems to be comprised of damaged people, and why do we see the exact same problems unfold in every band? Pretty coincidental, don't you think? I'm not saying that actually getting fame and money don't warp people. They do, they just make it worse, no doubt. But most of them started out damaged and just got worse because of being overindulged, as opposed to going from being totally normal to being really wacky. Furthermore, most of the people I know in the business that work with successful bands are very much aware of this and discuss it freely all the time. For that matter, most of the artists know it, too. It just doesn't get said much in public because it's not very promotional.

I hope all is well.

Sterling

[stabbim]

Wow, I went to a Styx show with Stabbim a couple of weeks ago and I swear it lasted a lot longer than 45 minutes.

Well, yeah...but you we sooooo high that night.

(actually the gig was just under two hours -- got the ROIO to prove it)

[shaka]

Wow, I went to a Styx show with Stabbim a couple of weeks ago and I swear it lasted a lot longer than 45 minutes.

Well, yeah...but you we sooooo high that night.

(actually the gig was just under two hours -- got the ROIO to prove it)

Yeah, the caffiene in Salt Lake City is highly potent!

[brywool]

How do you explain why every single successful band you could care to name seems to be comprised of damaged people, and why do we see the exact same problems unfold in every band? Pretty coincidental, don't you think? I'm not saying that actually getting fame and money don't warp people. They do, they just make it worse, no doubt. But most of them started out damaged and just got worse because of being overindulged, as opposed to going from being totally normal to being really wacky. Furthermore, most of the people I know in the business that work with successful bands are very much aware of this and discuss it freely all the time. For that matter, most of the artists know it, too. It just doesn't get said much in public because it's not very promotional.

I hope all is well.

Sterling

I don't see the same problems unfold in every band...

[stabbim]

How do you explain why every single successful band you could care to name seems to be comprised of damaged people, and why do we see the exact same problems unfold in every band? Pretty coincidental, don't you think? I'm not saying that actually getting fame and money don't warp people. They do, they just make it worse, no doubt. But most of them started out damaged and just got worse because of being overindulged, as opposed to going from being totally normal to being really wacky. Furthermore, most of the people I know in the business that work with successful bands are very much aware of this and discuss it freely all the time. For that matter, most of the artists know it, too. It just doesn't get said much in public because it's not very promotional.

I hope all is well.

Sterling

I don't see the same problems unfold in every band...

It's the Fame Cocktail: sex, drugs, money & ego in some combination (occasionally with a little violence &/or insanity sprinkled in for spice, often initiated or exacerbated by the drugs.) BTM may exaggerate for sensationalistic effect, but they're not just pulling this pattern out of the clear blue sky.

[StyxCollector]

I don't see the same problems unfold in every band...

I can't think of one band that does not have some skeleton in their closet somewhere. The difference with bands like Styx, Van Halen, and Journey is that they were made public for all to see, not just a select few who were "in the know". Fame, money, power - they change people. Sometimes good, sometimes bad, sometimes both (see: Bono; he's an arrogant prick IMO but at least he puts his money where his mouth is). Add sex, drugs, booze, and in-fighting to the mix, and you have a soap opera.

So just because you don't see it does not mean it's not there.

[Rockwriter]

How do you explain why every single successful band you could care to name seems to be comprised of damaged people, and why do we see the exact same problems unfold in every band? Pretty coincidental, don't you think? I'm not saying that actually getting fame and money don't warp people. They do, they just make it worse, no doubt. But most of them started out damaged and just got worse because of being overindulged, as opposed to going from being totally normal to being really wacky. Furthermore, most of the people I know in the business that work with successful bands are very much aware of this and discuss it freely all the time. For that matter, most of the artists know it, too. It just doesn't get said much in public because it's not very promotional.

I hope all is well.

Sterling

I don't see the same problems unfold in every band...

It's the Fame Cocktail: sex, drugs, money & ego in some combination (occasionally with a little violence &/or insanity sprinkled in for spice, often initiated or exacerbated by the drugs.) BTM may exaggerate for sensationalistic effect, but they're not just pulling this pattern out of the clear blue sky.

LOL, exactly. I should have qualified that with every SUCCESSFUL band. Fame for the most part is a terribly damaging thing, and then you take people who have never had money, and who have been starving for ten years, and throw a lot of attention and a big pile of money in front of them and say, "Here, divide that up amongst yourselves," that's a recipe for disaster. It's not a surprise when it turns out the way it turns out. My favorite semi-current example is Creed. . . hell, I saw that coming a million miles away. It was inevitable. Styx, Journey, the Who, the Eagles, Yes, ELP, Kansas, Foreigner, the Stones, the Beatles, Supertramp, Bruce and the E Street Band, Kiss, Zeppelin, Speedwagon . . . and on and on and on and on. We see pretty similar scenarios unfold quite often.


Sterling