Why Steve Smith will never return to Journey

[Matthew]

My dislike of Perry has lessened over the past year but I still can't believe that one of the greatest voices in rock on numerous occasions has left his fans without ANYTHING for years upon years.

It's his right, but I don't have to like him because of it.

Ten albums not ebnough for you, Amaron? Or is it eleven? Double-figures...anyway...

From 1986-2007 Steve Perry has given his fans 10 albums?

FTLOSM
Trial By Fire
GH+5

That's 3. In 21 years.

I'm sorry if I don't consider the David Pack 'contribution' worthwhile.

Oh...I didn't realise you were just talking about his solo stuff. Yes...after Street Talk it's been a bit of a wash out hasn't it?

[Matthew]

Hasn't ROR been called a Perry solo album by some fans anyways?

They are full of shit, Amaron.

[NealIsGod]

Hasn't ROR been called a Perry solo album by some fans anyways?

*raising hand*

[amaron]

My dislike of Perry has lessened over the past year but I still can't believe that one of the greatest voices in rock on numerous occasions has left his fans without ANYTHING for years upon years.

It's his right, but I don't have to like him because of it.

Ten albums not ebnough for you, Amaron? Or is it eleven? Double-figures...anyway...

From 1986-2007 Steve Perry has given his fans 10 albums?

FTLOSM
Trial By Fire
GH+5

That's 3. In 21 years.

I'm sorry if I don't consider the David Pack 'contribution' worthwhile.

Oh...I didn't realise you were just talking about his solo stuff. Yes...after Street Talk it's been a bit of a wash out hasn't it?

It's a damn shame. I sometimes wonder if Journey moving on in 1997 took the air out of his sails career-wise. That being said, I would have thought he would have thought about the consequences of the hip thing when they asked him to get it fixed so Journey could tour.

[Matthew]

Still...I'd rather see Schon in concert than anyone else...except maybe Rabin and Schenker....who have lost interest from their wildly differing reasons.

The only thing Schenker seems to be interested in is making enough money to get the next drink, unfortunately.

Yeah, he makes Eddie VH look like Michael Sweet.

Good to see you getting a few chuckles from the man's sad plight again, NIG. Do you point and laugh at the winos in your neighbourhood as well?

[Matthew]

It's a damn shame. I sometimes wonder if Journey moving on in 1997 took the air out of his sails career-wise.

I think it can all be traced back to the death of his mother. In fact, I doubt he would have even returned Herbert's call in 1977 had it not been for his old mum.

[NealIsGod]

Still...I'd rather see Schon in concert than anyone else...except maybe Rabin and Schenker....who have lost interest from their wildly differing reasons.

The only thing Schenker seems to be interested in is making enough money to get the next drink, unfortunately.

Yeah, he makes Eddie VH look like Michael Sweet.

Good to see you getting a few chuckles from the man's sad plight again, NIG. Do you point and laugh at the winos in your neighbourhood as well?

Must be your time of the month. Go change your tampon.

[amaron]

It's a damn shame. I sometimes wonder if Journey moving on in 1997 took the air out of his sails career-wise.

I think it can all be traced back to the death of his mother. In fact, I doubt he would have even returned Herbert's call in 1977 had it not been for his old mum.

I try not to criticize him for the ROR tour and disappearing, but 10 years is a long fucking time.

[Matthew]

Still...I'd rather see Schon in concert than anyone else...except maybe Rabin and Schenker....who have lost interest from their wildly differing reasons.

The only thing Schenker seems to be interested in is making enough money to get the next drink, unfortunately.

Yeah, he makes Eddie VH look like Michael Sweet.

Good to see you getting a few chuckles from the man's sad plight again, NIG. Do you point and laugh at the winos in your neighbourhood as well?

Must be your time of the month. Go change your tampon.

No - your smug superiority and schadenfreude about musicians and celebrities going off the rails has been bugging me consistently for a long time now. The tampon stays.

[NealIsGod]

Still...I'd rather see Schon in concert than anyone else...except maybe Rabin and Schenker....who have lost interest from their wildly differing reasons.

The only thing Schenker seems to be interested in is making enough money to get the next drink, unfortunately.

Yeah, he makes Eddie VH look like Michael Sweet.

Good to see you getting a few chuckles from the man's sad plight again, NIG. Do you point and laugh at the winos in your neighbourhood as well?

Must be your time of the month. Go change your tampon.

No - your smug superiority and schadenfreude about musicians and celebrities going off the rails has been bugging me consistently for a long time now. The tampon stays.

Really? Well, don't think we have forgotten about the humor you found in over 3,000 people killed on 9-11.

[Matthew]

Really? Well, don't think we have forgotten about the humor you found in over 3,000 people killed on 9-11.

Wow...that's a sly and nasty way of putting it. You make out that I was laughing at the footage and the individuals themselves.

I regret saying that the Mexican soccer chant was amusing. The context of a soccer match somehow made it seem 'okay' briefly but it was right that I was picked up on that and I apologized. An apology you clearly haven't accepted.

[Monker]

It's a damn shame. I sometimes wonder if Journey moving on in 1997 took the air out of his sails career-wise.

I think it can all be traced back to the death of his mother. In fact, I doubt he would have even returned Herbert's call in 1977 had it not been for his old mum.

OH, please. The guy was so poor and in ill health that his teeth were falling out (according to Robyn Flans). He would have returned anybody call to get off that turkey farm. His mother may have nudged him. But, I think there were other facts about his situation that were a LOT more pressing.

[Monker]

Hasn't ROR been called a Perry solo album by some fans anyways?

They are full of shit, Amaron.

So is ROR!

[Monker]

That song would've been great on an SP solo album, but Journey? Nah. One of the worst Journey moments ever.

I don't care where they put that song or what they call it. It's a classic. So deceptively cheesy and poptastic at first ...but it slowly unfolds into a work of towering righteousness. The last third of that track is one of the all-time great Perry performances.


(Where's Red? I've got a feeling I'll need some back up on this one. )

"Positive Touch" is CLASSIC? Classic is something of the highest quality worthy of being remembered. "Positive Touch" is something that people should forget was even recorded by Journey...It's about as far from being 'classic' as some people feel about "Believe" on Generations. It's not Journey's best work - by a VERY long shot...it's not definitive or representative of what Journey was. It's nothing but a catchy pop song by a once great rock band.

[conversationpc]

"Positive Touch" is CLASSIC? Classic is something of the highest quality worthy of being remembered. "Positive Touch" is something that people should forget was even recorded by Journey...It's about as far from being 'classic' as some people feel about "Believe" on Generations. It's not Journey's best work - by a VERY long shot...it's not definitive or representative of what Journey was. It's nothing but a catchy pop song by a once great rock band.

I never thought I'd say this about Monker but this deserves Post of the Day status.

[Monker]

Got to agree totally Matt. There was even an interview with Ritchie Zito who produced the first Bad English album who said without a shadow of a doubt Grunge was a backlash against the broadest 'Melodic Rock' and that includes any 'Hair' rock band from Crue to Journey - Anything that was well executed, polished and produced was deemed old hat overnight. To say it was just against 'Glam Rock', which in fairness died in the mid-late 70s after Bolan's death is just plain wrong. We did our first album in 1993, Burn - So Far, So Bad', very straight ahead bluesy rock, which got a 100% 5K review in Kerrang (a powerful mag at the time) and only really sold as an 'underground' release! Even the mighty Bon Jovi struggled after the early 90s and basically had to get their hair cut and look less 'mainstream melodic' to make the comeback with Faith.

The acceptance of Grunge was flat out a rebellion against the excessiveness of Glam and the LA Rock scene and the entire culture that went along with it. You watch "Decline of Western Civilization Part II" and you don't see any Journey type bands in that movie. THAT is what set off the Nirvana craze and then everything that followed it.

Now, that isn't to say that it didn't affect the Melodic rock scene...it certainly did. As soon as Nirvana hit, that is the only type of music getting released. One of the reasons the second Storm album took so long to release is because their label wanted to go Alternative. However, after the Eagles reunion, suddenly reuniting those Melodic Rock bands was not such a bad thing. Styx, Foreigner, Journey, all had decent albums back then...and 'hits' and a bit of attention. Even bands like "Damn Yankees" were making waves...and, of course, Bad English. But, those LA bands - which were HUGE business back in the 80's - were completely wiped out.

[Monker]

Fleischmann wasn't hired to be a songwriter in the shadows, was he? He was hired to be the frontman and lead vocalist. And this proved to be a mistake.

He was hired for the same reasons Perry was - and that included bring a more vocal sounds to a mostly instrumental band. That INCLUDES songwriting. In fact, I would take "Wheel In the Sky" over something like "Patiently" any day.

The motivation should have been Herbie taking no name bands and getting them to the top of the charts. With Herbie leading the band, instead of Perry, there would be no limitations to what could have happened.

But that was the motivation for Herbert in 1977...and he succeeded in getting this no name band to the top. We're talking about the late 80s when the main issue was how to manage the decline.
[/quote]

No...Herbie managed other bands to the top of their game during the late 80's. These bands could have been Journey...but they blew it. Read the Castles Burning interview for examples. Herbie continued on to success without Journey...Journey could not do the same without Herbie.

As for the starry-eyed, cultish comment about "no limitations"...well, Journey album sales dipped between 1981 and 1983 under Herbert's watch. Was that ALL Perry's fault too?

Absolutely. He took over Herbie's job. He was even deciding album covers and album names. He took on changing their sound and the band itself. Yes, it is Perry's fault - he took on the role and he should take the responsibility.

IMO - 1985-87 was under PERRY's watch - not Herbie's.

Also - had Perry not been such a competitive egomaniac then I seriously doubt Journey would have produced such great music. The dynamic - however fucked up it was - clearly worked because they became the biggest band in America for a while.

Perry's ego and competition was not out of control until ROR. Jonathan was hugely responsible for Escape, and had a lot to do with Frontiers as well. But, PERRY directed ROR - it was HIS baby.

Yet here he have the endlessly malcontent fan base saying that being the biggest band in America wasn't enough! That - unbelievably - the success didn't last forever!

God...that's more than enough arguing for one day.

I would have been content with ROR, if it didn't suck...and Perry would have deserved most of the credit....instead he gets most of the blame.

[Monker]

How ignorant. Grunge was a backlash against glam rock. Melodic Rock was something completely different.

What do you mean? Look up 'melodic rock' in any music reference site and you'll see that everyone agrees it's mainstream popularity started to wane in 1990. To say that AOR bands weren't affected by grunge/alternative is verging on the idiotic, Monker.

There is a difference between saying Melodic Rock's popularity 'started to wane' and saying Grunge was a backlash against Melodic Rock. One is true, the other is simply ignorant.

[Monker]

My point was that the music industry changed in 1990 and only about three bands - Aersosmith, Bon Jovi and Van Halen - survived. Would Journey have been one of them? Maybe - but the odds were stacked against them - especially given how uncool Journey were and how closely they were identified with REO, Foreigner and Styx - who all peaked commercially at the same time in 1981.

And, Styx release "Edge of the Century" and had a decent hit with "Show Me the Way". They also had a incredibly successful tour. Foreigner had released an excellent album with "Mr. Moonlight" and had an AC hit with "Until the End of Time". REO, is STILL out there doing 'whatever' REO does, I'm sure Kevin Cronin is still telling some story about it in one of their concerts.

But, for you to say Journey could not have survived through the 90's when ENDED the 80's above the examples you give above does not give Journey enough credit, especially if they kept Herbie as their manager...and let him do his job.

[yak]

Hasn't ROR been called a Perry solo album by some fans anyways?

They are full of shit, Amaron.

I'm one, and I am not full of shit. (right back at you)

ROR was Perry produced, thereby making it sound way too pop, and as much like a Perry solo album as it could have. I recall reading that this album took forever to get off the ground, yet all the while the Force newsletter was talking about how it was progressing, with the original five no less, when in reality it wasn't.

[Matthew]

It's a damn shame. I sometimes wonder if Journey moving on in 1997 took the air out of his sails career-wise.

I think it can all be traced back to the death of his mother. In fact, I doubt he would have even returned Herbert's call in 1977 had it not been for his old mum.

OH, please. The guy was so poor and in ill health that his teeth were falling out (according to Robyn Flans). He would have returned anybody call to get off that turkey farm. His mother may have nudged him. But, I think there were other facts about his situation that were a LOT more pressing.

I wasn't being entirely serious, Monker. Although I did once read that his mum strongly encouraged him not to give up at that time. And his productivity did grind to a halt soon after she died, didn't it?

[Matthew]

That song would've been great on an SP solo album, but Journey? Nah. One of the worst Journey moments ever.

I don't care where they put that song or what they call it. It's a classic. So deceptively cheesy and poptastic at first ...but it slowly unfolds into a work of towering righteousness. The last third of that track is one of the all-time great Perry performances.


(Where's Red? I've got a feeling I'll need some back up on this one. )

"Positive Touch" is CLASSIC? Classic is something of the highest quality worthy of being remembered. "Positive Touch" is something that people should forget was even recorded by Journey...It's about as far from being 'classic' as some people feel about "Believe" on Generations. It's not Journey's best work - by a VERY long shot...it's not definitive or representative of what Journey was. It's nothing but a catchy pop song by a once great rock band.

Thanks for trotting out the utterly conventional take on this song, Monker. I expected nothing less from you.

[Matthew]

The acceptance of Grunge was flat out a rebellion against the excessiveness of Glam and the LA Rock scene and the entire culture that went along with it. You watch "Decline of Western Civilization Part II" and you don't see any Journey type bands in that movie. THAT is what set off the Nirvana craze and then everything that followed it.

Actually, you make a very good point here. The melodic rock/AOR scene wasn't the focus of the rebellion. However, as you then go on to say:

As soon as Nirvana hit, that is the only type of music getting released.

So the success of grunge/alternative did indirectly kill off AOR as a real mainstream commnercial force. And the popularity of hip-hop amongst white suburban kids was another reason why melodic rock bands became marginalised.

One of the reasons the second Storm album took so long to release is because their label wanted to go Alternative. However, after the Eagles reunion, suddenly reuniting those Melodic Rock bands was not such a bad thing. Styx, Foreigner, Journey, all had decent albums back then...and 'hits' and a bit of attention. Even bands like "Damn Yankees" were making waves...and, of course, Bad English. But, those LA bands - which were HUGE business back in the 80's - were completely wiped out.

The Eagles reunion was quite different. They were a country-rock band from the 1970s - and had no associations with the 1980s at all. As for Styx, Journey, Foreigner...yes, they did get a bit of attention but nothing like the popularity they enjoyed in the 1980s. And not even Herbie Herbert could have bucked the downward trend in the 1990s....as any member of Mr Big can tell you.

As for Bad English..they "made waves" in 1989. Their next - and last - album was released in 1991 which was the same year "Nevermind" came out. And what happened? It sank with barely a trace. So I don't know why you are bringing Bad English into the equation here.

[Matthew]

He was hired for the same reasons Perry was - and that included bring a more vocal sounds to a mostly instrumental band.

That is hilarious Monker...."more vocal sounds"...like it was an mere embellishment rather than one of the MAIN REASONS for Journey's eventual success.

In fact, I would take "Wheel In the Sky" over something like "Patiently" any day.

Oh I'm sure you would. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if you said it was the greatest song you ever heard.

No...Herbie managed other bands to the top of their game during the late 80's. These bands could have been Journey...but they blew it. Read the Castles Burning interview for examples. Herbie continued on to success without Journey...Journey could not do the same without Herbie.

Well, it's certainly true that Mr Big had a Number One hit single in 1992 with "To Be With You" but other than that this moment of glory the band were nowhere near as big as Journey were in the early 1980s. Nowhere near. And by 1994 Mr Big weren't charting at all. Whereas Journey were....

Absolutely. He took over Herbie's job. He was even deciding album covers and album names. He took on changing their sound and the band itself. Yes, it is Perry's fault - he took on the role and he should take the responsibility.

I've already said - twice - that Perry has taken the responsibility for ROR and has never distanced himself from that project. As for the power shift...well, of course that happened. But this was a serious flaw in Herbert's management. He got out-witted by the talent. Hardly the act of an awesome Zvengali who can do no wrong.

IMO - 1985-87 was under PERRY's watch - not Herbie's.

I'd agree. And in that time they recorded their third AOR masterpiece in a row...

AI would have been content with ROR, if it didn't suck...and Perry would have deserved most of the credit....instead he gets most of the blame.

Monker - if ROR hadn't sucked in your world it would still absolutely kill you to give Perry any credit. I can hear it now...."It was only brilliant because Herbert allowed Perry the space to explore new territory"..."It was Jonathan Cain who was really the musical genius behind that record"... "Neal Schon played so well because he was 'detached' from the project and approached it with 'objectivity' because Perry was nasty to him..."

A couple of pages back I tried to demonstrate to NMT that I wasn't some flaming Perry fanatic and I listed a few criticisms of the guy to show that I was capable of being vaguely reasonable and balanced on the subject. One day I'd love to hear you come up with - say - five reasons why Perry was good for this band or what makes him an extraordinary talent or ANYTHING which isn't whiney or bitchy about the guy.

[amaron]

As for Bad English..they "made waves" in 1989. Their next - and last - album was released in 1991 which was the same year "Nevermind" came out. And what happened? It sank with barely a trace. So I don't know why you are bringing Bad English into the equation here.

Pearl Jam's 'Ten' also killed off the Tall Stories album, which was getting pretty positive feedback from the record label if I'm not mistaken.

[Red13JoePa]

Hasn't ROR been called a Perry solo album by some fans anyways?

*raising hand*

I can appreciate that point of view, even if I don;t roll with it. It's got the CORE of the band, the power center, and above all it's, for my money damn close to Neal's best playing on a whole album. He rose to the occasion of more challenges on ROR than just "Journey rock guitar. Journey ballad guitar."
I think whatever anger or frustration he was feeling was channeled into terrific diverse guitar playing.

Positive Touch IS one of my favorite ever songs. A triumph.

[amaron]

Hasn't ROR been called a Perry solo album by some fans anyways?

*raising hand*

I can appreciate that point of view, even if I don;t roll with it. It's got the CORE of the band, the power center, and above all it's, for my money damn close to Neal's best playing on a whole album. He rose to the occasion of more challenges on ROR than just "Journey rock guitar. Journey ballad guitar."
I think whatever anger or frustration he was feeling was channeled into terrific diverse guitar playing.

IMO, 'It Could Have Been You' was one of Neal's best on that album.

[Red13JoePa]

UnBELIEVABLE song, ICHBY.

LOVE it. The Schon outro just destroys me, coolest thing ever.

[Eric]

Touch" is CLASSIC? Classic is something of the highest quality worthy of being remembered. "Positive Touch" is something that people should forget was even recorded by Journey...It's about as far from being 'classic' as some people feel about "Believe" on Generations. It's not Journey's best work - by a VERY long shot...it's not definitive or representative of what Journey was. It's nothing but a catchy pop song by a once great rock band.

I would never play that song to anyone I was introducing Journey to. It is very dated - something CLASSIC Journey songs aren't.

[brandonx76]

As for Bad English..they "made waves" in 1989. Their next - and last - album was released in 1991 which was the same year "Nevermind" came out. And what happened? It sank with barely a trace. So I don't know why you are bringing Bad English into the equation here.

Pearl Jam's 'Ten' also killed off the Tall Stories album, which was getting pretty positive feedback from the record label if I'm not mistaken.

I recall hearing the second Bad English album came out just after the band decided to call it quits. This probably had something to do with John Waite, who apparently is / was a big ego-maniac, suffering from LSD (Lead Singer's Disease). Not sure we can blame their retirement completely on the 'grundge' take over...